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Fakes & FraudsBlue Hemimorphite from Ojuela Mine

16th Sep 2020 19:45 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

Perhaps it's my very skeptical nature, but the new Ojuela Mine blue hemimorphites that have appeared recently don't look right to me. Has any analytical work on these been published (or even rumored)?

16th Sep 2020 22:00 UTCBob Harman

There is an extensive discussion of these new to the mineral market specimens on JORDI FABRE's website.     I suggest reviewing those discussions.      BOB 

16th Sep 2020 23:57 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

Please give the exact url of the discussion thread. Thanks.

17th Sep 2020 00:10 UTCRuss Rizzo Expert

Steve, it literally took me 3 seconds to find it on google.


17th Sep 2020 00:13 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

Thanks for the link. My own experiments on attempted faking have produced faint blue hemimorphite, but nothing as strong as the colors of the 'natural' material. So for the moment I am a believer.

17th Sep 2020 00:18 UTCRuss Rizzo Expert

You are right to be skeptical.  They do look too good to be true.

It would be quite difficult (impossible?) to color the hemimorphite blue without staining the matrix or affecting  any associated minerals.

17th Sep 2020 01:56 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

I have been experimenting with both blue food coloring and copper sulfate solution. Soaking in a strong solution of blue food coloring overnight gives a light blue tinge, but does not change the appearance of the matrix. A similar overnight soak in saturated copper sulfate solution has no effect which I could observe.

17th Sep 2020 14:35 UTCJuan Ángel Tort Figueroa

08122300016015602822284.jpg
Wulfenite crystal with blue hemimorphite from la ojuela mine. This was painted by nature in the deepest part of the mine in an area where it was flooded for many years, now the water dropped in level and these beautiful pieces painted by the copper solutions of the mine could be discovered.
 

23rd Sep 2020 17:41 UTCRichard Harrison

Just a point of interest - maybe someone more knowledgeable can weigh in - it might be that some dyes were experimented with (these guys are obviously good), and by elimination a dye found that almost selectively 'binds' to the hemimorphite. If so, some interesting chemistry behind this. And I almost think that it might be the case.

Regards, 

17th Sep 2020 14:55 UTCJuan Ángel Tort Figueroa

01846880016015602851230.jpg
thinners test.

17th Sep 2020 15:11 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

If you soak calcite in a copper sulphate solution, the calcite turn green on the surface (like the infamous faked pseudomorphs from Camp Verde, Arizona - https://www.mindat.org/photo-4761.html ) So, if the blue hemimorphites were color-enhanced (and I'm not saying they are) it would certainly not have been by soaking in copper sulphate solution, because their associated calcites are unaffected.

18th Sep 2020 00:10 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

Hi Alfredo,
Don't know if you ever saw the article I wrote and posted on my page about those green pseudos from the Copper Canyon, not actually Camp Verde, got that fixed also, those hit the market and Mary knew they were being colored so she had me experiment and I figured out just how they were making those.  Wrote it up and it is on my page.
These hemimorphites seem to have formed in the mine itself under flooded conditions.

18th Sep 2020 00:26 UTCJuan Ángel Tort Figueroa

00138380016015602869822.jpg
Calcite very Clean. If you need one sample to study closer is available.

20th Sep 2020 20:54 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

01927510016007011952029.png
Post by Mardani Fine Minerals from Instagram

"Hello everyone, we’re following up on the blue hemimorphites from Ojuela, MX that we posted about three days ago. To recap, a “new discovery” of electric-blue hemimorphite specimens became available, the quality and color of which were shocking to the mineral community. Fine Minerals International/Mardani Fine Minerals acquired a group of them remotely via photos and videos provided by our local contacts. Physical inspection of the material showed inconsistencies with natural coloration that raised a number of doubts to their authenticity. So, before bringing the pieces to market, we sent samples to a few labs for analysis. Today, we write to inform you that we’ve received the results from Dr. John Rakovan (Professor of Mineralogy/Geochemistry) at Miami University and are sharing them with the mineral collecting community at large.

Upon close examination, there is clear evidence that the color was a coating on the superficial layer of the crystals, and that it had been adhered to the crystals’ surfaces in an uneven fashion, and presents evidence of evaporation. This alone was not sufficient for a determination but is a strong indicator. Use of Raman spectroscopy ultimately revealed that the color was, in fact, the dye Phthalocyanine Blue BN, a commercially created coloring agent used for dyes and paints. It is an unnatural substance and was not present at the time of the hemimorphite’s formation; therefore, we have concluded these specimens to be fabricated and fake. Based on these findings, we are not bringing the specimens we acquired to market. We would like to note that other dealers and enthusiasts also sought to determine the source of their coloring but that their studies were often inconclusive as the material was extremely difficult to isolate because of the super-thin coating and required advanced equipment to identify its presence. We cannot state that all examples are false, we suggest that if one questions their specimen, they have samples analyzed for specific results. We hope that this answers questions and is a service to the community. Thank you for your interest."

 

20th Sep 2020 21:42 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Its important to note this colouring agent is insoluble in both water and organic solvents 

21st Sep 2020 00:13 UTCJuan Ángel Tort Figueroa

OK, the analyzed samples are fake. But, all found? I have bought ojuela minerals directly from the mine for 30 years, recently I bought some pieces of blue hemimorphite from the miner who has always sold me a wide variety of ojuela minerals. I think the miners are not part of this deception.
Did they paint the hemimorphites inside the mine?
Can anyone get that pigment?
Can anyone do that job?
Is the discovery video edited?

 

21st Sep 2020 08:00 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

My answers to these questions.

a) No, probably not.
b) Yes
c) Impossible to say until we know exactly how it was faked. There may be some commercial painting/coating process for products in a factory nearby that someone thought "I wonder what happens if I try to put a rock in it?"   Certainly the industrial use of this material is VERY widespread.
d) I haven't seen the video, but if I were trying to fake a video I'd do one of two things, either selectively ramp up the blue component of the video to match the colour of the fake pieces or (probably more likely), simply return a large dyed piece to the mine, put it back in place and make a video while extracting it again.

20th Sep 2020 22:05 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

It's a particularly diabolical organic dye because, as noted above, it is not soluble in most organic solvents (every collectors' first test for fakery), and because it has copper in it, so anyone checking their specimen by XRF or SEM-EDS will see the Cu, and the underlying Zn of the hemimorphite, and not see the C, H or N in the organic part of the dye molecule, and will of course then assume they have a hemimorphite with part of the Zn replaced by Cu. And XRD is similarly only going to show hemimorphite. So no use doing any of the commonly used analytical techniques on these.

Furthermore it is an extremely easy dye to obtain, one of the most commonly manufactured ones, used in a multitude of different industries.

Now some will surely ask why the matrix doesn't have dye on it? That part is easy: In my experience most Ojuela limonitic matrix is extremely soft, earthy and friable, so a simple jet of water will wash the top layer away in an instant, along with any adhering dye. A more difficult question is how they avoided coloring the associated calcite crystals. For that I can just make a guess: The dye is acid-resistant, so perhaps a very brief wash in acid, just enough to remove a microscopically thin layer of the calcite surface but not enough to visibly etch the calcite crystal, would clean up the calcite while leaving the dye film on the hemimorphite intact? Or perhaps calcite is selectively less stained than hemimorphite? (Differential staining of mineral species is well known to petrologists, who use it for example to differentiate calcite from aragonite and various other ID tests.)

21st Sep 2020 00:50 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

Alfredo, you've made some great observations here.

While the dye is essentially insoluble in water, I wonder if it is still soluble enough to contribute notable Cu (but not Zn from the presumably much lower solubility hemimorphite) from a specimen washed in low trace element (Milli-Q) water and then soaked in Milli-Q water for a day or two and then solution-analyzed on an ICP-MS.

In a purported "true" Cu-replacing-Zn-in-hemimorphite sample, very tiny amounts of both Cu and Zn should dissolve in the water (solution ICP-MS is sensitive to part per billion or even part per trillion element concentrations), and presumably the solution would evolve as Zn>Cu as the base mineral dissolves, albeit almost imperceptibly, because it really still should be hemimorphite.

But in a surface-dyed sample, the Cu concentration from an even barely soluble dye should quickly overwhelm the presumably much lower solubility of the hemimorphite, leading to Cu>>>Zn in the analyzed solution.

One of Juan's type of samples would be ideal for such a test.

21st Sep 2020 07:55 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

however, if there was a natural colouring agent of, for argument sake, an included copper carbonate or sulfate, then that would also distort the readings in the same way that the copper dye would.

21st Sep 2020 09:01 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

that's true, although the solubilities of such materials in a dilute acid bath (or maybe even in water in the case of sulfates) would likely yield elemental ratios quite different from what would be expected from the insolubility of this apparently rather inert dye. In fact, it seems the dye is more acid-resistant than the hemimorphite would be. In any case, an interesting analytical issue.

21st Sep 2020 08:13 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Are some of them genuine and some fake? I know a lot of you are asking this.

I very much doubt this, because of the time it would have taken to research how to fake something and make it look very much like the genuine ones - it's VERY unlikely that this happened and all released at the same time. It's far more likely they are all fake.
 

And it doesn't really matter now. Even if there was a genuine one - good luck trying to prove it's real.

If you have bought one of these contact the dealer and ask for a refund. All reputable dealers will refund on these pieces without hesitation.


21st Sep 2020 10:07 UTCPaul De Bondt Manager

Everybody who bought a specimen of this should return it to the dealer.
If everyone does that, the fakers will be less tempted in the future to fake specimens.

Keep safe.

21st Sep 2020 10:15 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Not really. The dealers will lose out and the fakers will no doubt be long gone now with their money. 

21st Sep 2020 10:16 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

However, you're right in that anyone who bought one should return it to the dealer for a full refund.  If anyone finds a dealer is reluctant to provide a refund for them please feel free to name and shame them.   Fortunately every dealer I've seen post on this matter so far has immediately said they will offer full refunds to all purchasers.

21st Sep 2020 15:23 UTCJuan Ángel Tort Figueroa

I agree, the right thing to do is get to the truth even if it hurts, especially the town of Mapimi will be the most affected.

21st Sep 2020 15:21 UTCBret Howard 🌟

Simple copper phthalocyanine is insoluble in pretty much everything so it makes me wonder how it would be applied to the hemimorphites.  Cu phthalocyanine can be derivatized to increase and control its solubility.  Perhaps one of these derivatives was actually used.  Wouldn't require much since they are so intensely colored.  Still a fake specimen either way........

21st Sep 2020 17:12 UTCJuan Ángel Tort Figueroa

one of many available videos of miners discovering blue hemimorphite

21st Sep 2020 17:34 UTCJuan Ángel Tort Figueroa

With these videos it's hard not to believe. The truth first.

21st Sep 2020 18:56 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Is it really that clean inside the Ojuela mine? I would've expected clouds of limonite dust, considering the matrix so many specimens from there have.

21st Sep 2020 19:45 UTCBill Dameron 🌟 Expert

And those are really clean specimens, in situ...they sparkle

21st Sep 2020 19:52 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Those videos look to me like the miners have taken large dyed matrix pieces down the mine to make it appear that they're mining them.

The video is terrible quality, and doesn't really show anything properly in situ.

21st Sep 2020 19:53 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

We still don't know exactly how they faked them, how they managed to get the coating on the hemimorphite without staining the matrix or the calcite. That's something we can probably speculate on.

But none of that alters in any way at all that they are fake.

21st Sep 2020 21:23 UTCJuan Ángel Tort Figueroa

Very interesting comments. I think it was a flooded place and the water went down so the specimens were clean. The videos were taken with cheap cell phones, they don't have a good camera.

21st Sep 2020 21:46 UTCRobert Nowakowski

I have had a different take on these blue hemimorphites right from the beginning.  
If you think about it, over the years, how many major finds were documented in the mine by miners anywhere in the world.  To me the video was part of a coordinated  effort meant to convince potential buyers that the fakes were real. 

23rd Sep 2020 06:07 UTCGregg Little 🌟

Watch carefully the last video at about the 1:05 time mark and look at the upper end of the piece (top of the video picture) almost out of view of on the right side. the hemimorphite crystals there appear more light grey than blue.  Why would the colour not appear all around the sample?

21st Nov 2020 20:20 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

The mystery of the lack of blue staining on the calcite has been solved, I think. A good organic chemist tells me that phthalocyanine blue attaches to (OH) groups. Hemimorphite has them, calcite doesn't. 

21st Sep 2020 19:44 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

As Alfredo just mentioned, I too have been in a large number of mines and have never seen one as clean as that footage they claim was taken at Ojuela.   In fact, a number of the mines I have been in the dust is coating everything you can't tell the rock underneath at all.  The footage I saw you had posted is waaaaaaaay to clean to be natural as far as I would say.

21st Sep 2020 22:15 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

why is it that I suddenly want to own one of these now?  LOL

21st Sep 2020 23:01 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

It is the Mineral for 2020, that's for sure.

21st Sep 2020 23:31 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

very true... we can toss "fake blue hemimorphite" on the "what else can go wrong with 2020?" pile of... well, pile. And the year isn't over... lol.

But I was thinking more along the lines of the cleverness of the fake... using a chemically inert Cu-bearing dye... what a very creative idea! This ranks up there with the cleverness of those lab-grown Sicilian sulfurs (if only the creator of those had used isotopically-correct sulfur... with that lesson learned, a future faker will not be so careless).

When the prices of these blue beauties plunge to what low quality "mine run" colorless hemimorphite costs, and if any dealers even have the audacity to still try to sell these in the future, I might try pick up a sub-$5 piece, just for posterity. After all, one has to admire a clever forgery.

23rd Sep 2020 06:35 UTCTama Higuchi Manager

I propose we name these new specimens "Hemimorphite var. Windex" ;-)

23rd Sep 2020 11:20 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

00895240016015602878697.jpg
Hemismurfite 

23rd Sep 2020 16:04 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

07415730016009429925320.jpg
Perhaps these specimens could be called Doctormanhattanite.

23rd Sep 2020 18:07 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

Fourth member of the Blue Man Group?

23rd Sep 2020 18:04 UTCPaul De Bondt Manager

Some video's have been posted about these blue hemi's.
Some say they have been coloured by copper sulphate when that part of the mine flooded which is wrong.
If the dye is Phtolo blue, how do they justifie this organic dye so deep in the mine ?
The only way to have this dye so deep is to bring it that deep.

Keep safe.

23rd Sep 2020 18:53 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Right, Paul. Coloring by reaction with copper sulphate in water would have affected the calcite more than the hemimorphite, and the reverse is the case, so that theory was just wishful thinking.  And anyway out of date, since John Rakovan demonstrated that the dye used was Phthalocyanine Blue, a copper-bearing synthetic organic dye, resistant to most solvents and acids, and therefore difficult to detect by any of the usual methods commonly available to collectors.

10th May 2023 22:32 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

00169620017055893672275.jpg
Two flats of this material appeared at the recent West Coast Spring show (May 5-7, 2023 in Santa Ana, California): one of miniatures (reasonable at USD $30 each) and another of cabinets also reasonable at USD $60 each). A photo of the miniatures flat is attached. The dealer (Pyrite Cubes) admitted the material is fake (as we all know by now).

Viewed in person, these are actually quite pretty, so I bought a cabinet piece for my fakes suite.

10th May 2023 23:03 UTCDana Slaughter 🌟 Expert

This same dealer had these at the Flagg Gem and Mineral Show in Mesa, Arizona in January and, to his credit, admitted that they were fakes. I'd be curious to be a fly on the wall when unsuspecting customers chance upon them as they are not clearly labeled as artificially colored.

10th May 2023 23:47 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

Even when I was just looking - before I had made any indication I might buy - the seller admitted them to be fakes. Kudos to the dealer for this.

10th May 2023 23:54 UTCLuís Martins 🌟

03572850017055893729625.jpg
Spotted this in an Australian show a few months ago

11th May 2023 00:27 UTCRobert Nowakowski

Is that $350 for the fake?

11th May 2023 01:11 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Australian $$$, so that's only about $230 in us$.

I LOVE that label! The price is worth it for the creativity of the label   ;))

11th May 2023 01:42 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

Maybe the price is fake too!

18th Sep 2023 20:25 UTCUdo Behner

 i had bought nice vapor deposit colored quartz crystal specimen  in all colors of the rainbow labeled them quartz crystals   from Brazil - Color made in China nice decorational pieces  i first thought the color is simple spray paint  but it was impossible to rubb it off with any solvent   so  i was shure the color stays for ever and its vapor deposit 

18th Sep 2023 20:26 UTCUdo Behner

 we need more dealers like that educating the public as  comrade  lenin said  knowledge is power !

11th May 2023 13:14 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

A number of years ago, a local fellow from Tombstone stopped by selling "Tombstone Silver specimens".   As soon as I saw the pieces, I knew they were man made.  The seller only said it was Tombstone silver.  I said those were not natural and then he admitted they were ones he had lab grown.   Later the same specimens showed up on mindat and as far as I know are still there, saying Tombstone Silver.   The seller had gone on to sell the specimens to other dealers and if the dealer didn't ask if they were natural, he didn't say anything so the specimens were labeled as Tombstone silver and not man made.  Shame the guy only told of their origin when actually asked.  Shame those kinds of fakes are all over the place.

11th May 2023 13:19 UTCDana Slaughter 🌟 Expert

Wow! Just checked the Tombstone silvers and these are pretty alarming. I've never seen anything like it from Tombstone. I'm with you on this Rolf. The owner suspects that they may be artificial--in my opinion, these should be removed.

11th May 2023 14:37 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

Dana,
The man who sold those on the market was a fellow my wife actually knew and he admitted he had made them.  Since he lived in Tombstone he sold them as coming from there!  Well,  technically they did come from Tombstone but were only "made" there.
I have pointed this out before on mindat but nothing much was done.  I know for a fact those are man made but people still want to "believe".
I also think those should be removed but nobody has done this.  I even wrote to the person who posted them but he didn't do anything besides saying they "may" not be natural.  I know they are man made because these are the same ones the man tried to sell us.   The dealer who purchased them just didn't ask and sold them as Tombstone Silver.
We see what happens since others now seem to see the same thing I first did, waaaaaay too bright for natural.

11th May 2023 14:51 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

Please post a 'Tombstone silver' so we can all see what you are talking about.

11th May 2023 15:52 UTCPaul De Bondt Manager


Keep safe.

11th May 2023 16:29 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

Thanks for the link. Some are obviously lab grown fakes while the others are natural.

11th May 2023 19:11 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

Message sent to the uploader.

11th May 2023 23:36 UTCDana Slaughter 🌟 Expert

Hi Rolf,

Off topic a bit,  but I can't help relaying the following story (as told to me by Marie Duprey). A few decades ago, Ted and Marie Duprey of Wyoming, MI experimented with growing chalcanthite crystals on regional rocks. Marie was the mad chemist and apparently produced more than a few of these and even offered some for sale at a couple local shows at club booths. Many pointed out that these were man-made and Marie repeatedly rebuffed their comments. Frustrated complainants threw their hands up in despair only to have Marie exclaim, "They're not man-made, they're woman-made!!" She was a remarkable woman!

12th May 2023 15:19 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

"They're not man-made, they're woman-made!!"
 :-))))))
 
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