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GeneralA conundrum

9th Nov 2007 19:09 UTCRay Ladbury

In Gail's thread on music and rocks, the comment about the imminent entrance of many of us to old-fartdom status raises an interesting question: Why aren't more young people interested in rocks? I mean given the resources available today--ebay, mindat.org and countless others--both live and over the Internet, why are so few kids interested in rocks, or in bugs or in...nature?

I remember when I got hooked. It was when I fell in love with an aquamarine crystal at the Denver show back in the early '60s. It was too rich for my blood. Funny thing, they still are. But it got me started collecting, and I kept it up until Jr. High or so. However, it was hard to get info. The library only had so many books on rocks. Teachers didn't know much. I didn't get back into collecting rocks until I wound up digging for sapphires in the Lake Turkana region of Kenya after my Peace Corps service. I'd be very interested in other peoples' opinions of why it's hard to captivate young minds with our fascinating hobby. I'd be especially interested in hearing from young prople about why their peers don't seem to be able to muster interest in nature.

9th Nov 2007 20:12 UTCJoan Kureczka

Sadly, the San Francisco Chronicle ran some stories related to this recently. Not only are kids today not taken out into nature, but as a result they don't get interested in it. Contributing to this is the almost total lack of any science or natural history teaching in the schools today, in part due to this extreme emphasis on test scores in English and math to the exclusion of most other teaching. And little time or incentive for teachers to supplement the mandated curriculum on their own.

Also, there is little parental support and a lot of liability issues for things like outdoor field trips, etc. that might also help interest the kids in stuff like this.

These comments are of course mostly relevant to US audiences, as I have no idea what the schools are like for those of you based elsewhere.

When I was a kid, exploring outside alone or with friends and family was encouraged. Now there is a lot of fear for kids to be wandering far and wide outside. And of course, there is the siren call for many of the internet, computer games, etc.

9th Nov 2007 20:23 UTCJeremy Zolan

I would have to disagree with you Ray. I started collecting minerals at the age of 13, what I consider seriously collecting at the age of 15, and I am now 18, in college, and I'm addicted. I know a few people around my age who are interested in collecting as well. The reason I love minerals so much is purely accidental. From the time I received and studied an old chemistry text from my grandmother, I knew I wanted to become a chemist, and it's my goal to pursue a Ph.D and either teach at a university or do research. In the book, there was much mention of minerals and their use as ore, so I decided to try to figure out ways to refine them on paper whenever I was bored and I didn't have friends to hang out with; We all have our vices, I know. I did more and more research on minerals and how to refine them until one day, I stumbled upon Mindat and went crazy. I started doing random element searches and was amazed at the beauty of the mineral world. The field was fascinating to me, both chemically and aesthetically and I probably spent a few days just learning what I could; the basics. I also was shocked that Connecticut, my home state, is amazingly rich in minerals. What really surprised me was that there was an old Tungsten Mine (W is one of the coolest elements, so I HAD to go) about 15 miles from my house. I planned a trip with my mother, who was more interested in science than my father, but my father became the one who accompanied me on trips later on. I didn't find much that day aside from some massive topaz, which I thought was just feldspar. However about a year later when my knowledge of mineralogy was effectively "squared", in mathematical terms, I knew what I had. I also found out that I kept misidentifying clear Fluorite as Topaz! What a stupid mistake, I thought! I then decided to pick up a copy of Dana's New Mineralogy and teach myself, and I found out that fluorite is less dense and more distinctly cleavable then topaz. Around this time, I became a member of Mindat, but decided to keep quiet until I was a bit more knowledgeable and I could hold my own in the community. I just wanted to learn. Also, I attended my first mineral show. I thought I was a freak because I liked minerals so much, but then I realized there were more people just like me! a lot of them were scientists as well! I bought a few basic specimens from a dealer who has now become a good friend of mine. He also pointed me in the direction of a few good collecting spots. I discovered that there were 3 good localities up in Southbury, CT, where I have some close relatives. I visited all three, and my favorite had to be the Garnet Mine (the other two were the Roxbury Iron mine and O&G quarry dumps, which is now off limits to collectors). I would say O&G would probably be my favorite now if I got access to the workings instead of the dumps, especially since I am more experienced at field collecting. Anyway, I found some garnets, some really ugly prehnite, and some massive siderite to add to my growing collection. At that time, I decided to make my own labels for the specimens and create a categorization system. Let's zoom forward to a year later. I started finding decent things, things I could trade with people to get better and different specimens. I also went to Springfield for the first time and saw some world class minerals. At this time, I knew what good minerals looked like, and I knew basic localities such as Tsumeb, Cave In Rock, Rogerley Mine, etc, and I could identify things decently. I threw down probably too much on minerals at that show but came out with some good material. I also met some interesting people. At the show, I was informed about the Franklin, NJ show and Trotter Dump Dig, so I begged my parents (I still didn't have my license) and my mom took me. I had the best time of my life there, and although I look back on the stuff and see nothing special, I can still recall what it was like to find my first piece of good fluorescent calcite and willemite. The show was also rewarding too, I met a few really interesting people including Chet Lemanski, Terry Szenics, and Alfredo Petrov. Terry showed me some of his namesake mineral, which amazed me, because I didn't know that such beautiful new species could still be discovered, and it had a great chemistry! A Copper Hydroxyl Molybdate! How cool! I still love the stuff as much as I did when I first saw it and it's remained one of my top 5 favorite minerals since. I had to get a piece, so I shoveled out some dough and bought myself what would now be considered a very good thumbnail of Szenicsite. Anyway, long story short, I collected more and more in the field, became more and more obsessed with mineralogy, and spent more and more on mineral specimens at shows. I started driving and I visited other less familiar localities. My collection hit the 500 specimen mark as well, which happened about mid-summer 2007, and honestly, most of the collection isn't that good, it's not quality at all and I've recently decided to liquidate down to my 200 best pieces, some which are brag-worthy. In September of this year, I went to college and did a little collecting in NH, but things have pretty much been on hold since summer, because I just don't have time.

Anyway, Ray, I think there are plenty other people in my generation who have similar stories, you just have to dig through everyone else out there for them. Yes, videogames and computer have contributed to overstimulation of my generation as a whole, making everything that doesn't provide instant gratification seem boring, but there are still young people out there that can appreciate things like mineral collecting.

9th Nov 2007 20:58 UTCLloyd Llewellyn Expert

I'm just happy to be an Old Fart! :)

10th Nov 2007 02:03 UTCRay Ladbury

Jeremy,

I fear you and a few others on here are the exception rather than the rule. My story is somewhat similar to yours, albeit displaced about 30 years back in time. I knew by age 12 that I wanted to be a physicist--and it was the optical properties of minerals that first ensnared my interest. Back int the '60s, it was hard to find the sorts of resources that are easily available today. Still, I remember kids going down to our local creek, catching crayfish (before they all died from pollution) and exploring the wonders of piezoelectricity by smashing quartz rocks together. I don't see that now. I work for NASA, and I don't see kids interested in space--even though what we're doing now is even cooler than the moon landings.

So, I think you may sell yourself short--you may be rarer and smarter than you think. Good luck in your chemistry career. My physics career has been great.

10th Nov 2007 04:29 UTCJeremy Zolan

Regarding chemistry, I have always leaned towards the inorganic and physical chemistry side of things. Sometimes, chemistry doesn't cut it for me, my interest in topics such as magnetism, piezoelectricity, semiconductivity are not explained intimately by chemistry, and a knowledge of solid-state physics is necessary. I am also interested in some pure physics topics such as interference, electronic theory, and some kinematics (although my newtonian physics class is extremely frustrating because it uses no calculus and is thus pretty choppy in its design, and hard to understand, while it could be easier), and I have been pondering pursuing a chem-phys double major, or at least a minor in physics. Before I was interested in chemistry, I was more physics-oriented. at the age of 14, I remember obtaining a large crystal of arkansas quartz from a metaphysical shop and I drilled holes in it, attached some wires, and hooked that bad boy up to a multimeter. Hitting it with a small ball-peen hammer produced the obvious to me now, but back then, I was amazed. Also, I grew quite a few artificial crystals back in high school when I got free time in the lab (and with my instructors permission). Of course, I couldn't work on anything too phenominal, although I had some cool ideas, I did some cool stuff in my free time. However, the analytical course I took with that teacher was far more rewarding than my often simple independent work. There is one sad part; I often helped students who had a hard time with with chemistry, and sometimes math, and I noticed that kids just hated the stuff. I don't blame the lack of interest on the students, but the teachers. To my recollection, I was the only physical science major to graduate from my high school. Although it sounds supremely geeky, and it's a bit beyond my comprehension as of now, but I think that the ability to understand something as intimately and mathematically possible is quite exceptional indeed, I think people can't really see or desire that understanding because they are misguided. They end up choosing light and fluffy majors mostly because people fear these allegedly "intense" subjects, due to their experiences taking a high school course with a horrible teacher and approach, or being placed in what I call a "filter course" in college. I think being misguided by a poor science teacher steers teenagers away from anything involving hard science, I consider mineralogy to be part of that.

10th Nov 2007 06:03 UTCLyla J. Tracy

As an old Fart-ette who grew up with rocks under the bed, and stacked in the linen closet, I don't remember a big push in my schools even in the 50s to acquaint kids with minerals. Of course, in the higher grades one had the choice, and I thoughly enjoyed my share of field trips, damp sleeping bags, and monotonous bus rides.

I was lucky, my folks were into mining, and on the weekends we would take short trips collecting rocks and minerals all over California, Nevada and Arizona. My Dad could spot an old mine dump from a mile away, and would just tear off through the desert, road or no road, with the result that he frequently got us stuck out in the middle of no-where in some dry wash.

Back to the point here, I recently had my grand children (7 and 9) visit for a few days, and was pleased to hear about a field trip my 9 yr. old grand son had just taken to Mercer Caverns...(Northern California) He excitedly told me about the experience,and how much he enjoyed it, and that he needed some more minerals to take to school for "show".

These kids are electronic addicts, and it is a tough job to lure them away from their push-button, action-screen world. If there is a lack of interest in nature, and minerals,I think it can be partially attributed to an over abundance of electronic toys, and the desire on the part of most parents to keep their kids close by. For my grand kids, I just keep exposing them to minerals when ever I can, and so far it seems to be working...Cheers, Lyla

10th Nov 2007 11:38 UTCJyrki Autio Expert

I remember being different child even in early seventies because of my interest in minerals. The idea of mineral collecting was brought to me from my radio-chemist father who bought me some clear quartz crystal for starters. Later we advanced to making our smoky quartz out of them in his working place.

I also remember that at certain age I had to keep very low profile at school because of my addiction, to avoid playfull nicknames fellow students gave me such as "fossilised stone boy".

But back then investigation of wonders of nature in itself was not uncommon. With little persuasion I could invite my friends to collect minerals from nearby rock dumps. And some even got really into it. We also collected insects, water creatures and all kind of living things.

Now, observing my son and his friends I see little of this. I believe society is now more uniformitan and offers more ready made acceptable solutions how to behave than in near history. Despite of all talk about individualism and freedom of choice.

Jyrki Autio

12th Nov 2007 14:00 UTCPeter Slootweg 🌟

Unfortunately it is a fact that less and less people get interested in a subject like mineralogy. In my opnion it is the lack of exposure of young people to this fascinating aspect of nature. and if exposed, they find it hard to believe that a thing like a crystal is something natural. I don't know the experiences of other collectors but i find it difficult to explain to other people in simple terms that these shiny things are products of nature. some people just refuse to accept that nature can produce these things. The fact is , as pointed out by others, that young people are not introduced in this world of mineralogy. And if they get interested and buy a mineral book, which is rare in these digital times, they get discouraged by the complicated terms we all take for granted. Yes they may look at the beautiful photographs, but when you take a look at the texts, it is usually a summary of the properties and locations. Very useful, but it make very uninteresting reading for the novice. If more books were like Bancrofts monumental Gem and Crystal treasures, more people might get enthousiastic not only about minerals and crystals but also about the history and genesis. If to appriciate something fully one must know not only the very specific but also the broad picture. Books usually focus on one of these.

This comment is due to my experience as a starting mineral collector. When i started collecting minerals i was also about 12 years old. My granddad had a nice collection of fluorescent rocks brought from business trips around the world, mainly brazil. When he died i received it from my grandmother and that was the base for my collection. Having no knowlege about minerals and nobody around me to tell me about them. The only thing i could do is to go to the library and to look for information. The books i found there were hard to understand but the pictures were beautiful. I had the luck to get to know the owner of a jewlery and mineral shop and he gave me my first thorough introduction in this subject. In the following years i learned a lot. Something i am very grateful for. If not for him i would seriously doubt it would have come this far. Especially since minerals larger dan sand grain size are very rare in the Netherlands, where i live. eventually i became a member of a mineral club but that didn't last very long as the majority of members were minimal 3 times my age. Later i found another club of wich i'm still a member. Although i'm now 33 years old and never quit collecting since my start i'm still one of the youngest with almost no new younger members in the last ten years. As my collection grew so did my taste for minerals. So, just like Jeremy, i started to sell those who were not up to my standards anymore. I became a small time mineral dealer at shows. not only to get rid of my old specimens but also to meet more collectors and in this way I found that you see less and less youth at mineral shows. In the Netherlands which has no mining history so the chance of encountering minerals is very rare. only museums and some shops are a source. If you want to collect in the field you have no option but to go abroad to Germany or so. This doesn't make it easyer, especially for youth. Combine this with the fact that mineral prices are rising rapidly, it gets all the more difficult to obtain nice material for a nice price. Yes, you can obtain anything if you just pay the sometimes ridiculously high prices, but for me that is not the fun of collecting. So many nice things can be found for a bargain if you just have the knowledge to recodnize them. But this knowledge is quite hard to come by. So i was happely surprised to see that in Tucson school children having a school trip to a gem and mineral show. Now that is a way to make children aqainted with this subject. No difficut knowledge that is hardly useful in daily life but a hands on experience so that these children can just look at all these colors and odd shapes and make up their own minds about them. That's inspiring and should happen a lot more. Eventually, one can never appriciate something that you have never seen or heard about.

Peter Slootweg

12th Nov 2007 16:41 UTCHoward Messing

This is a far larger problem than just keeping this hobby going. At least in the United States there is a general decline in the number of kids going into any of the sciences or engineering. It used to be here (and still is in much of the world), that scientists and engineers are looked upon as role models. Not so now. Sports figures and celebrity musicians and actors is what is pushed on the kids. My own pet peeve is that schools have decided that it is ok to compete in sports but not intellectually (e.g. the end of Science Fairs).

Our obsession with entertaining our kids is a big part of it as well. When I was young, my parents did not expect to spend all their time shuttling me from one organized group activity to another. I was expected to take care of myself, and lo and behold discovered my life long interest in science. Yes, mineralogy can be a very social endeavor, but at its core it can be and often is a solitary pursuit. We don't teach kids to be self reliant on finding interesting activities to pursue. (Frankly, even worse than the lack of interest in science is the de-emphasis on the solitary pleasure of reading.)

13th Nov 2007 00:02 UTCJeremy Zolan

I haven't started selling anything yet, but I plan to start something up. I really need the cash anyway because I'm not going to be able to finance my hobby otherwise, being in college and everything. I do have so much extra stuff, most of it I can get rid of through sale/trade, or even by giving it away to whoever wants it.

13th Nov 2007 01:34 UTCDavid K. Joyce Expert

All,

Over six years ago we started a mineral club for children in Toronto, Ontario, Canada called the "Young Toronto Mineralogist Club". Have a look at our website www.ytmc.org . It is modelled on a club that my brother and I and one of the other organizers were members of when we were kids MANY years ago. (We are teetering into old fart-dom) We meet monthly and keep the membership to 30 or so kids vbetween the ages of 8-14 or so years of age. I wish there was something for 14+ year olds but there is only so much time.... It is mandatory for a partent to participate in the meeting. We also take them on field trips twice a year. In short, many of the kids have been involved for years and love it.

If you are concerned with the lack of young people interested in mineralogy, I suggest that you invest some time and start up a club. It doesn't really take up that much time and is a lot of fun. Build it and they will come!

David K. Joyce

Newmarket, Ontario

13th Nov 2007 02:07 UTCDavid K. Joyce Expert

All,

Over six years ago we started a mineral club for children in Toronto, Ontario, Canada called the "Young Toronto Mineralogist Club". Have a look at our website

www.ytmc.org .

It is modelled on a club that my brother and I and one of the other organizers were members of when we were kids MANY years ago. (We are teetering into old fart-dom) We meet monthly and keep the membership to 30 or so kids vbetween the ages of 8-14 or so years of age. I wish there was something for 14+ year olds but there is only so much time.... It is mandatory for a parent to participate in the meetings. We also take them on field trips twice a year. In short, many of the kids have been involved for years and love it. We expect that some of them will retain their interest into adulthood.

If you are concerned with the lack of young people interested in mineralogy, I suggest that you invest some time and start up a kids' club. It doesn't really take that much time to do and is a lot of fun. Build it and they will come!

I'd be glad to provide you with other information, if you'd like.

David K. Joyce

Newmarket, Ontario

13th Nov 2007 03:53 UTCJenna Mast

When I went to help out one of the local gem and mineral societies set up for their annual show, I was the youngest person there. Most of the members were in their 60's.

I think there's a lot more distractions in society today than there used to be. I don't think mineral collecting is on the decline though. I think it's popularity simply hasn't grown at the rate of the population. That gem and mineral show was a small local one but it drew thousands of people of all different ages.

Want to attract more people? Take some specimens and leave them here and there for people to find. Pretty rocks almost always get picked up and wondered about.

13th Nov 2007 04:07 UTCJason B. Smith Expert

Interesting discussion to say the least and it is one I have thought long and hard about. I am 30 now but I have been interested in minerals since I was 3 or so. Throughout my school years I was interested but never that seriously although people like my father and grandmother kept me piqued with trips to the sluicing and touristy areas of the NC mountains. It wasnt until after my (then) future wife purchased for me a few specimens for christmas one year that I was hooked again, at about 19 I believe. But the desire for me was never really extinguished because it started YOUNG! Getting the kids really young is the only way to insure a future for this hobby/science. Once the kids get through the "too cool for school" years they may return. Jeremy is dead-on. There are way to many outside stimuli for kids to get involved with now. Even when I grew up we spent most of our time in the woods building forts, playing soccer, skateboarding, and whatnot. Now the kids have 17 different game systems to choose from on top of all that to keep their skin nice and pasty. But just putting minerals in the back of their minds may just light a spark as it did with me.

I am still an avid skateboarder and also very active in the collector sneaker world. I still pretend to be younger than I am I guess. I have friends who have been to my house and taken a stroll through the rock room and cant understand what the hell I am doing this for. Still, some others are very interested and on occasion have spent time under the scope. The funny thing is that the people who are interested will always tell you that they had some interest in rocks as a child. I am constantly shoving crystals in kids faces now, hoping that one day when they are older they will see a specimen and they will remember. For me it was a chinese cinnabar, a Jefferey Mine vesuvianite, and a pakistani zircon that got me hooked again. Thanks Mandy!! (although see my receipts from the last show maybe she regrets it now!)

Oh, and Jeremy, I havent forgotten about your chunk of material from Alum Cave Bluff. Jason.

13th Nov 2007 05:52 UTCJeremy Zolan

It's ok, Jason, take your time with the specimen. Something I find funny: My brother is the complete opposite of me, he is a very avid skateboarder and he plays a lot of guitar (something I wish I could do, honestly), and he isn't too fond of science or math but he is very respectful of my hobby, as I am his. He may hate actually going to collect, but he always likes seeing what I find.Unlike him never coming with his brother to collect, which I won't make him do anyway, I often accompany him to the skatepark or to the guitar shop, and I enjoy both too (except I would kill myself if I tried skating, I play with my camera and take action shots instead). Of course, like my brother, there are some people who just aren't interested in mineralogy or science at all. However, there are many who potentially are, and that's what troubles me.

13th Nov 2007 15:20 UTCDonald Vaughn

I'm now 26 I started collecting at about 4 years old pieces of flint which I called marble now I will leave work on a friday drive 3 or 4 hundred miles to collect for just one day then run home my collection is not amazing or anything but I am proud of it, so yes there still are young people who have the bug because it can be addicting. now if I could only find a nice young lady who likes to collect ;^)

24th Jan 2008 06:54 UTCGreg Dainty

In his original post Ray, ask "Why arent more young people interested in rocks" I think there is a lot of interest out there. I think the question should probably be "How can we connect better to young people, to let them have the choise of availing themselves to the great experience and knowledge our community has"

I recently did an exibition at a music festival, attended by 2000 -3000 young people. The interest was overwhelming, the questions were challenging, and sales very good. Families were coming up saying "Thanks for being here, our kids are crazy about rocks" (all five of them), when we were putting the last things in the car to leave, people were still coming up and saying "please, could I have a $10 rock, just pick something nice for me" One 21 year old showed me a self collected water clear 6cm+,complex DT Quartz, and collector would be proud of, from a location unknown before. There are a lot of young people interested.

Ray like the sapphires in Kenya, you never know what may rekindle an old fire, or spark a new one, I think if we are interested, we have to try and find different ways, or seek new opportunities for reaching out to the next generation of collectors.

Personally, I make it a point to give a gift of a mineral to everybody who visits our house,not just a $2 door jam, but something I will miss a little. Something pretty, but also technicaly interesting.

If anybody has any ideas Id be interested to hear.

Greg

24th Jan 2008 14:27 UTCSteve K

Shouldn't that be "a corundum". LOL.

24th Jan 2008 15:39 UTCjacques jedwab

...and yet, kids (and grown ups) are so fascinated by magic stones, weird metals, moon rocks, meteorites,... featured in heroic fantasies, fairy tales, etc. (cf. "kryptonite").

I dare to advance the following hypothesis: are the real minerals not too often associated with terrestrial pollution, disease, disturbance of nature, wars, etc.? This could be paralleled to the observed aversion against chemistry by freshmen.

Perhaps are mineralogists not the right people to understand this contemporary gap between the attraction towards imaginary minerals and the aversion against the real ones?

24th Jan 2008 15:40 UTCJoan Kureczka

Greg -- I think your post is right on. I have several clients with young children who mention the kids getting interested in rocks after going on a little hunting trip, so I try to make sure to give them a fluorite. Ditto for any kids visiting the house who like the rocks. The daughter of one eventually came and worked with the crew for a few weeks at the Rogerley in Weardale when she was a high school junior, and today is a graduate of the U. Chicago now applying to grad programs in volcanology.

The TGMS show does a good job with lots of programming and activities for the kids, and I seem to recall Denver at least doing some of that (haven't been for a few years). I think it is definitely the responsibility of those in the hobby, especially those with resources of time, money or both, to make an effort to support efforts like this in one way or another. Dealers in particular, take note! These are your future customers!

24th Jan 2008 15:56 UTCBill Gordon

The Sussex Mineral & Lapidary Society, during their annual show, always have something for juniors. For instance, in 2007,

WORKSHOP: CHILDREN STONE POLISHING,

FOSSIL RUBBINGS -

Illustrated Talks

11.30 - 12.00 JUNIOR CORNER: How to Collect Minerals -

They also have a lucky dip, where every child can come away with a mineral of some sort.

Well worth taking the kids if you are going.

24th Jan 2008 16:19 UTCJoseph Polityka Expert

This is a stimulating issue.

When I was a kid back in the 1950s, home technology was in its infancy: there were few air conditioners, televisions and rarely more than one car in the family and most of us held a part time job.

We did not have video games, cable TV with 100s of channels, all terrain vehicles, snow mobiles, dirt bikes, expensive vacations, ocean cruises, snow boarding, skate boarding and ski lodges, swimming pools in the back yard,etc.

We certainly did not get trips to Aruba when we graduated from high school. As a result, we got out more and enjoyed exploring the world around us. There was little reason for us to hang around the house. I remember walking around old mine dumps, making "bum soup" as we called it (frankfurters, potatoes and onions cooked over an open fire), skinny dipping in the local resevoir and just horsing around.

My first long trip away from home was when I joined the US Navy at age 17 (there is something about living in a coal mining town that makes you want to leave ASAP).

Simply put, today there are numerous,more stimulating alternatives for young people. That,coupled with the "Dumbing down of America", as Patrick Moynihan stated, has definately contributed to the problem. I firmly believe that the American education system has been taken over by radicals of the 1960s who emphasize social issues over science because, in their minds, science is responsible for all of society's ills.

Also, how about those mineral prices: I just saw a small translucent quartz group from China with an asking price of $250.00. If that is the starting point for mineral specimens in the eyes of some dealers, then soon no one will be able to afford collecting.

24th Jan 2008 16:23 UTCSpencer I. Mather

I happen to agree with Ray on certain aspects, he sounded like he lives in England. Up to last year the sciences were not taught in the vast majority of schools here in the UK, this is not to say that all schools didn't. The teachers here are dead scared of taking the children out in nature to study and observe, the reason being that if little Jonny or Maria falls and hurts him/herself the parents will sue the schools for thousands for not taking care of them, in other words we live in a litigation society in the UK! Then there is the fact that very few mineral/geological societies who have children as members, the reason being that a lot of todays children cannot concentrate for more than five minutes. When my yongest grandaughter comes to visit me she asks me straight away to show her some minerals and explain them to her, sometimes I take her out in nature and now she his really hot at naming birds, flowers, trees and insects. But how many of todays parents or grandparents take the time to do so, both their parents are at work all week, so when the weekend comes round they are too tired to be bothered. Spencer.

24th Jan 2008 16:55 UTCMatt Dyer

I don't know if Bill will agree with me here but as a 14 year old living in Britain these are my suggestions as to why more young people aren't intersted in rocks.

1. The coolness issue, a lot of the problem is the perception that mineralogy and most other scientific related hobbies aren't 'cool' and are seen as 'geeky' and all the rest of it. My friends aren't too bad about my interest in minerals, they know winding me up will result in a bruise! I dont think its a lack of interest, just a lack of willingness to appear 'uncool' persueing a hobby. Maybe the answer is to try and make mineralogy cool!?

2. I think we in Britain are suffering from a health and safety crisis, from what I gather from my dad who grew up in the 70s, kids were basically encouraged to go outside and explore all day and lots more places were available to explore, and maybe to collect in. Nowadays,health and safety rules and we are banned from many places due to these supposed risks, some are genuine but many are rubbish. Also, parents are far more concerned about letting us be outside, there are dangerous people out there but it does appear to be people think that even if we go out supervised we will still be abducted.

3. There are a great many resources out there available to younger people but our problems are that we are rarely pointed in their direction and they contain a lot of complex language that is difficult for novices.

4. Many of us have parents working full time and so the oppurtunity to go out and collect or to join a society is very limited due to the cost of public transport and so we basically can't get to where we want to be. And aswell as this, it is even more difficult if your parents dont share your interest and a rock is just a rock to them.

5. There is a distinct lack of shops selling the pieces that might hook a young person into collecting. I have looked around by area (North Hampshire/ Surrey border) and there is very little in the way of shops, even around places where you would expect there to be a lot. The only exception is cornwall. The first time I collected anything mineralogical was on a trip to a german town called Idar-Oberstein, well known for its gem produce at the age of 12 in 2005, and I began collecting seriously on a trip there in 2007. In this town, there is literally half of their high-street devoted to mineralogy shops, probably about 20 shops. We have very little of the sort here.

6. Exams these days are a nightmare, they're spread out all over the place, in fact I had a physics one on monday in which I hope to achieve my targeted A* grade, but this means you spend half your life doing revision, or the dreaded coursework.

7. Obviously there is the matter of the millions of other distractions in a young persons life, being a normal teenager I do own a ps2, a psp and a wii and yes children these days probably do spend too much time playing such things and probably, no offense to everyone, but the majority will originally prefer playing computer games to mineralogy. I prefer not to class myself as one of the 'pasty skins' because I also play football (soccer to you americans!), rugby, go boxing twice a week and am currently one of the fastest 100m runners in my school, but I still do find myself slightly addicted to certain video games, although I still find plenty of time for my (currently small) collection. I think it would be good to try and find a balance.

Thanks for reading,

Matt

24th Jan 2008 16:56 UTCDonald Peck

I am a former high school teacher (chemistry, physics, earth science). I also worked at a couple of universities, at one of which I conducted hundreds of science workshops for elementary school teachers. And I taught chemistry and geology at the universities.

I think Joe Polytica is correct for the major part of the problem. There are just too many other things to do today. It isn't just a lack of interest in minerals or rocks (I have never known a youngster that didn't collect them at some point in time). Kids lives, at least in the US, are over structured with youth sports, dance lessons, karate, etc. When home they are absorbed by electronic games, TV, etc.

Are schools part of the problem. Probably yes. When a youngster comes home from school with three hours of home work, He/she is not likely to go out looking for pretty rocks, or a pickup ball game. Elementary teachers, especially the older ones, are scared of science. They took as little as possible in college and probably had a bad experience in high school. A colleague once told me "It is easy to make a good course difficult. It is difficult to make a good course easy." Most kids (and prospective elementary school teachers) consider science to be too difficult (read mathematical). They head in other directions.

I think it was Benjamin Disaili who said, "No generalization is any damned good; including this one!"

24th Jan 2008 17:42 UTCBill Gordon

Hi Matt,

Yes, I agree with the reasons you have put forward for younger members of society not wanting to get involved in, to them, geeky hobbies. I think the fault lies with parents who don't give their children a wide variety of life.

A lot of parents will say "I've been working all day and am too tired, go and watch telly/play with your nintendo", etc.

Take them to a fossiliferous beach or a quarry/dump, etc, where they can collect fossils/minerals to their hearts content and some will, even though they had never thought of it before, take up the hobby.

They will meet, and become friends with, like-minded people of their own age, at society meetings. If enough parents take them along in the first place.

The point is, to get them interested.

In the early 90s my two boys, then aged about 7 and 12, and I, joined the SMLS. They came on some fieldtrips with the society, collecting minerals and fossils and still do collect, when they can.

The world needs to wake up to the fact that there's more to life than technology.

Says I, sat at my computer. :)

24th Jan 2008 17:43 UTCSpencer I. Mather

Hi Matt. There are many good shops dedicated to minerals in the UK, not far from you is an excellent shop in Lyme Regis, they have the most in your area. Also, I agree with what you wrote,I teach children all about minerals at their level in my local museum, and I find that they soon pick it up and come back for more. If you send me your address I will send you some mineral specimens, some of them which will be uncommon. My e-mail address is; garnets@blueyonder.co.uk Spence.

24th Jan 2008 20:34 UTCGreg Kokolus

I have been away from the collecting hobby for quite some time (early 70's) and upon rejoining the club of my youth, was not surprised to see a graying population. Actual fact is that I'm now part of that group.

I was thinking about what can be done to infuse some new blood into the hobby and here's what I plan to propose to the membership at the next meeting:

Many of our local colleges and universities offer some sort of program in earth sciences. I will suggest contacting the Chair of the Department and asking him/her to provide names of students with an interest in geology/mineralogy/paleontology. The club will give these students a one year free membership and include a shoebox of indentified minerals/fossils to start their own collection. Also, a copy or two of the club newsletter, mineral magazines etc. I know that when I was collecting full time that I had boxes of material that would never be used in my lifetime. I think that this an opportunity to let potential student "rockhounds" that there are others out there that share their interests. By being members they could also attend field trips and participate in other activities.

Just a thought.

24th Jan 2008 22:36 UTCJoseph Polityka Expert

Matt Dyer,

Congratulations on your brilliant essay.

I concur with the points and issues you raise.

You can find lots of bargain minerals on the Internet. In general mineral shops are a dead issue unless they are in an historic area like Cornwall, Idar Oberstein, Bisbee or Franklin, New Jersey.

Best,

Joe

25th Jan 2008 01:27 UTCJennifer Nemitz

Hello all,

My club is pretty lucky in that we are affiliated with a college and meet on campus monthly. However, cross-promotions with the geology department have been very disappointing (to me anyway). I think most of today's geologists just aren't exposed to mineralogy and collecting - it is all geophysics, geomicrobiology, etc. Out of our department of 150+ grads only 2 really participated - myself (a hydrologist) and a mineralogist.

I'm leaning toward that today's science curriculum ignores geology in the younger ages when you have to grab 'em. Every kid loves rocks and dinosaurs, but no exposure in school. I didn't have a geology or earth science class until college! As a result, our club has been focusing on elementary kids with outreach activities like:

1) Junior mineral education day - many stations for 12 and under to visit including crystal shapes, fossils, mineral properties, fluorescent rocks (a biggie!), lapidary, etc. We give them an egg carton and they walk from station to station to hear a little talk and get a free labeled sample from each site. By the time the day is done they have a little collection. Our last event had 350ish children and we ran out of supplies. More importantly, we had a few families join the club.

2) At our mineral shows, we always include kid's activities including a "gem mine" where they pan for treasure in a sand box. They can identify their finds using a identification board (and helper). I run a kid's silent auction where little minerals go for $0.25 to $2.00 with buy it now prices (if they just want it now) in the $1.50-$2.00 range. The kids LOVE to bid and it so much fun to do as a volunteer! We mostly use club collected samples so some kids won some of the Lime Ridge, PA yellow wavellite this year!

3) This one is cool - We have a "Weird Object Identification Day" at the local mall. We advertise in the paper for people to bring in any unknown natural object. We had an archaeologist, mineralogist, geologist, paleontologist and microscopes, hardness kits, etc. Everyone has something special they found in their backyard that they save but don't know what it is. We had a line around the mall. Fun night.

Well, I hope I some of our ideas are inspiring to you all.

Jen

25th Jan 2008 04:04 UTCDouglas Merson 🌟 Expert

Three years ago our local club started a program at our annual show to allow Scouts to earn their geology merit badge. Members donated rocks, minerals, and fossils so the scout could assemble a collections. A number of stations were set up where scout leaders and members explained different aspects of geology.

Two years ago we expanded this program to include all the schools in our county and a portion of a neighboring county. We assembled a case of rocks, minerals, and fossils that was given to the school with the highest attendence. Some teachers gave assignments to their students to be completed at the show. This was very successful and provided a big boost to our show attendence. We have also picked up a number of new members from this program. Our club does have a very good juniors program. The photo shows the case we gave away at the November 2007 show

Doug Merson

25th Jan 2008 19:01 UTCSteve Kittleson

Matt Dyer,

You are wise beyond your years. Keep contributing to this website, there is a wealth of information to be had, and given. Webmineral.com, which is a bit more technically oriented in nature, is also a great source of information.

From the other side of the pond, in New Jersey.

Rock on(ouch!)

4th Feb 2008 11:01 UTCAnonymous User

As a "young person" I was fortunate enough to be the son of a baby boomer.

How does this relate to my generation's lack of interest in earth sciences, etc.?

My belief is the following:

Gem and mineral collecting was a hobby enjoyed by the parents of the baby boomers. As was stamp and coin collecting. The boomers were a rebellious group and collecting rocks wasn't seen as the "in" thing. As a result, the information was not passed to my generation because it ended with my grandparent's generation. With the rapid increase of divorces, my generation was rarely allowed time to visit with their grandparents. Trips into the field were not taken as Atari, Nintendo, etc., became the "fun" thing to do. Quality time spent learning from your elders did not happen. This is how my generation developed such poor behavior, ADD, etc..

So what's a video game junkie who has ADD and no real family to do?

Turn to collecting rocks? Why? It's so much easier to lose yourself online.

Why am I different? Maybe I spent my "ADD time" watching too many shows on Discovery or the History Channel... Pirate wrecks, ghost towns, Roman ruins, etc., fascinated me and got me to go outside and look around.

Who knows...

One thing that I do know that is making this hobby harder than hell is the inability of a lot of the "old farts" to share with my generation the secrets of their ways. I appreciate this website quite a bit, but as a general rule... It seems to me that many "old farts" would rather take their secret locations and mineral collections to their graves then to share it with a non-family member from my generation.

I am not trying to sound rude. Believe me, I am extremely grateful for each and every piece of information that I can learn.

It's just that I do not believe that my generation is completely to blame. There was a gap between my generation and the "old farts."

So yeah...

I am in a generation that needs self worth. For me, I would love nothing more than to find the largest "whatzit crystal" in the world. Or the biggest "holy cow rock" ever found. Id love to have something that I dug out of the ground on display in a museum somewhere.

To do that requires knowledge and teamwork from the "old farts."

Unfortunately, that knowledge is disappearing daily.

4th Feb 2008 14:08 UTCPeter Nancarrow 🌟 Expert

As one of those who almost certainly fall into the "Baby Boomer / Old Farts" categories described by a couple of our younger Mindat friends, (no offence taken I can assure you!), I can sympathise with the thoughts of those like Matt and Kristopher above.

It is obvious that among the sad facts of modern life which are hindering young people from enjoying scientific hobbies such as ours, are not only perceptions such as it being "Uncool" and also that there are far more distractions for them than there were when I started becoming interested in mineralogy, but also the greater feelings of insecurity amongst their parents (justifiable or otherwise), the cost of purchasing specimens or going on field trips, the diminishing numbers of places where it is possible to collect, and certainly, health & safety paranoia has a lot to answer for.

One of the reasons I spend so much time on-line (including here at Mindat, writing the long-winded answers that I do on some threads - e.g. this one!), and not spending every spare moment of my time indoors at my microscope or working on my mineral collection database, or swotting up my marine navigation, or listening to Led Zeppelin, Jethro Tull, or Mozart, is precisely because I like to try and encourage those who are just starting out, and to share some experiences (see my updated Mindat Homepage), and to help out when I can.

But although we can offer every encouragement those who have already expressed some interest, such as those visiting Mindat, as to drawing in those who are as yet oblivious to "The Joy of Rocks", I think that the solution is to a great extent out of our hands. It requires a change of attitude by the powers-that-be (i.e. govenment and the educational authorities) to give a higher, more positive profile to science in general, to promote it's world view and the philosophy behind it, and to give an educational push to get young people more interested in science as a career. Not just in research generated and controlled by commercial interests such as the the spin-off technologies of computers, digital photography, communications, pharmaceuticals, etc., but also, of course, to provide secure funding for fundamental exploratory scientific research.

Another aspect that needs to be addressed is the rather widely held naive perception that mining is inevitably an undesirable, unnecessary, environmentally hostile activity, and that mineralogy and geology essentially exist solely to support the mining and quarrying industries, and are therefore also tarred with the "enviromnentally unfriendly" brush by some. When I started working for Rio Tinto, even as one who had worked in geology for almost 20 years at that time, I was unaware of just how much of their research buget went into evironmental matters. Yes, granted, much of that is driven by regulatory requirements, but the fact remains that most of those working in the mining industry are very aware of, and supportive of, the need for stringent environmental control of mining activities.

I have had several heated discussions with people such as the ones who, when they found that I worked for, and have shares in a mining company, immediately accused me of "profiting from the destruction of the enviromnent"! Yet those same people of course, mostly (apart from those few who live in recycled VW camper vans) live in houses or apartments built with bricks &/or tiles made of clay from clay pits, cement from limestone quarries and plaster from gypsum mines; held together with galvanised nails and steel lintels, with copper wiring and plumbing, brass door hinges, aluminium saucepans, stainless steel knives and forks, etc. They listen to their music on hi-fi systems with GaAs LED displays held in place with solder containing tin, and controlled by Si-chip based microprocessors, and powered by electricity generated by gas turbines with alloy blades, or reactors powered by uranium fission.

They traveled to make their protests in buses or trains made largely of steel etc, and driven by diesel fuel, (or perhaps on steel and chrome bicycles, or even in cars! - shock, horror!?), wearing their beads, bangles, ankhs and pendants, and all the other powerful symbols of their point of view. (Made of amethyst, jade, garnet, silver, titanium, etc!) Very likely they had had their lunch of wholesome organic food before the meeting. (Delivered to the shop/cafe in plastic trays, by truck, from the farm where it had been cultivated and harvested with the aid of tractors and modern greenhouses and irrigation systems.)

If they genuinely lived in caves or tents lit by tallow candles, ate only what they grew themselves (cultivated with wooden, bone or stone tools, of course), and had attended their protest on foot or horseback, wearing only home-knitted clothes and hand-carved bone jewelery made of wool and bones from their own sheep, and listened only to live music played on home-made instruments, I might have more sympathy with their hatred of the mining industry! But obviously none of them did, and realistically, with the world population and infrastructutre as it is, very few of us could even if we wanted to.

Particularly for the Earth sciences, such environmental naivety needs to be countered, and the essential nature of mining as fundamental to our well-being stated more publicly and emphatically. There also needs to be some degree of back-pedalling of our current risk-averse culture, to allow more school-age (and mature) students to get out there in the field, up mountains and into quarries, down mines, etc, to allow them to understand that being involved in, and supportive of mining, and sciences such as mineralogy and geology, whether as a career or as a hobby interest, is a worthwhile, even essential "real life", activity, and not just something for geeks with their heads stuck in books.

Pete N.

4th Feb 2008 15:46 UTCDonald Peck

Well said, Pete!

4th Feb 2008 16:53 UTCPhil Walsh

There seems to be a lot validity to what everyone is saying, but don't draw firm conclusions. I'm a "boomer" (66 now) and I'm the only one in my family who has any interest in "rocks". No Great Grandparents, no Grandparents, no parents, no siblings and no one that I knew growing up had any interest.

I joined the state mining association many years ago because I wanted to support the industry that provided most of the items that we like to collect. I served for 5 years as the president of the local chapter, 7 years on the board of directors and was a frequent speaker at their annual convention. No I'm don't have a degree in geology or anything else. I'm just a run of the mill rockhound.

In 1975 I started teaching a mineral ID class for beginners. This class is taught through the Adult Education Program in the local school system. "Students" have ranged in age from 11 to 83. I have a new class starting on the 12th of this month. Sure, I would like to go to Tucson, but to me it's more important to try to help new people get their start with a little bit of confidence.

I have been president of the local club three times, president of the state association once, a co-founder of the state "Crystal Collectors Society", and I have done a guide book on locations (many of my own finding) in Montana. I know that I may be a bit more involved than many, but I am of the opinion that we are all obligated to help others when asked.

Currently I teach ID classes to some home-schooled kids and other school kids as asked. As Pete N. said its often easy to get involved in "discussions" with those who are uninformed about the realities of life.

I had to pursue my interest without the assistance of anyone else. In the 50's the local library in a town of 3500 didn't have much in the books or other information. I just waded and waddled the best I could. I'm still not a real knowledgable person but I believe that we are all obligated to pass on to others the knowledge that we gain to the best of our ability.

Many of the people in my class are repeat students. They say they come back because I often get off the subject and start talking about new locations that I have been found. A couple of professors that I know want me to do another book because they know I can do them almost off the top of my head. For the next book I am getting around to the ares I want and getting good GPS readings for the locations. It'll take a while doing this. Oh well.

My best recomendation, NEVER brush off a question from a kid and always answer their questions to the best of your ability, even if that means saying I don't know but I will find the answer or help you find it.

5th Feb 2008 13:25 UTCRay Ladbury

Well, it's not just mineral collecting--people are becoming more and more estranged from nature. Most people couldn't even identify a woodpecker if they heard one:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080205/ap_on_sc/communing_without_nature;_ylt=AiyMG6cvTR4gLXkE7vo3My.s0NUE

5th Feb 2008 22:50 UTCPaul L. Boyer

I think that Phil is quite correct. NEVER brush off a young one. I gave a small talk last year to my son's class (second grade at that time). While I am no expert (far from it), I talked about minerals and rocks to them, and brought samples along. Of course I brought the flashy minerals along with lots of crystals and color to catch their attention (no manganese oxides!!!!). Bring a few other things like gold, silver, emeralds, copper, etc, and a few special items like fluorescent minerals and a UV light, and they are HOOKED (they could not believe the unreal glow that the Franklin and Sterling minerals had). I was supposed to talk for 30 min. The kids convinced the teachers to extend it to 90 minutes!!! The interest is there if only it is stimulated.

6th Feb 2008 07:01 UTCRay Hill Expert

Hallellujah Paul

You, in brief, have encapsulated my entire thesis on this string..that is to take the shock and awe approach into schools to get the kids hooked and excited. Thank you so much for relating to us your experience. I will heartily vouch for this as the one most effective means of enticing, and convincing the kids of today that minerals are reeaallllly better than vid games and all the other distractions that are out there for them.

I personally would like to beg all serious collectors out there to do a "Paul" with your brightest and your best in at least one classroom a semester and the rewards you get back from this experience are tangible and fun . I have done this for over 35 years as often as I can with as many possible kids and classrooms both at my home, at shows and in schools with the sole intention of infecting as many as I can with my own personal crystal bug.

About 6 months ago, I received evidence that this is occasionally effective, in the form of an email and followup inquiry from an amazing and precocious little girl who, about 20 years ago had invaded my home and back yard with unending questions and curiousity about minerals, and how to find and identify them.. This came as a huge surprise and her email revealed that she had not only kept the book I had given her, but also all the minerals and rocks too. These had followed her through many family moves,a masters, and a PhD in Geology ending up recently in her offices where she now cares for her country's premier museum mineral collection..

So as of then, if not before, I was a convert and a believer in the huge future value of taking time to encourage,and fan those young flames of interest. You never can imagine where such time spent will profit present and future generations of scientists and collectors..

As an aside, a few years before this I had experimented in the use of mass media to promote and disseminate information about the hobby to kids by having created and run a Cable program called 'Rock Talk'. Through this year of live programming, people not only learned how to identify, trim and catalogue minerals specimens, but they also saw just how a stone was turned from field collected rock into a finished gem.. and to cap off the year, I got the Girl Guides and Boy Scouts of the region to take a Television Collector's Badge course , which was sanctioned by their leaders. At the end of this TV Course, all enrolled boys and girls got together in Scout House to take the test for the Badge. We had over 100 enrolled and almost that many finish and write the test. This was a Canadian Scouting and Guides first, and clearly,at the time, a new and successful means of reaching out to kids to encourage them in the hobby.

You're next!!

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