登录注册
Quick Links : Mindat手册The Rock H. Currier Digital LibraryMindat Newsletter [Free Download]
主页关于 MindatMindat手册Mindat的历史版权Who We Are联系我们于 Mindat.org刊登广告
捐赠给 MindatCorporate Sponsorship赞助板页已赞助的板页在 Mindat刊登 广告的广告商于 Mindat.org刊登广告
Learning CenterWhat is a mineral?The most common minerals on earthInformation for EducatorsMindat ArticlesThe ElementsThe Rock H. Currier Digital LibraryGeologic Time
搜索矿物的性质搜索矿物的化学Advanced Locality Search随意显示任何一 种矿物Random Locality使用minID搜索邻近产地Search Articles搜索词汇表更多搜索选项
搜索:
矿物名称:
地区产地名称:
关键字:
 
Mindat手册添加新照片Rate Photos产区编辑报告Coordinate Completion Report添加词汇表项目
Mining Companies统计会员列表Mineral MuseumsClubs & Organizations矿物展及活动The Mindat目录表设备设置The Mineral Quiz
照片搜索Photo GalleriesSearch by Color今天最新的照片昨天最新的照片用户照片相集过去每日精选照片相集Photography

GeneralSynthetic or Man-Made minerals

23rd Feb 2024 15:11 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

04423740017087010882531.jpg
I have six or more minerals that are synthetic or man-made items and there is no good place on mindat to put these.   Examples are carborundum, diamond, nickel, silicon, titanium and zincite.  I have posted most of these, but they are only listed as "other" in category and do not appear on the open pages but only on "user only" pages.
Is there a good place where these things can be put on mindat so people can find and see them?
I know a few are on mindat but there are quite a few synthetic items that are nice and could have a place on mindat.
Attached photo is of the synthetic Titanium cluster, nice specimen and in our collection.

23rd Feb 2024 15:22 UTCNick Gilly

That's a beautiful piece!

I suggest a spin-off for attractive man-made and synthetic specimens: Syndat.

23rd Feb 2024 17:45 UTCFrank Mersch

These are still crystals - crysdat ;-)

Frank

10th Apr 2024 18:32 UTCUdo Behner

i might consider to revive my site crystalgrowing.com  which was devoted to lab grown crystals  i remember having exchanged an electrylytic grown titanium  ( using THF as a solvent   now I am thinking about growing AuAl2  purple  intermetallic I also made gallium crystals  of several 100  gms apiece ollecting artificial crystals  can be very< interesting 
rtallic crystals

23rd Feb 2024 17:15 UTCcascaillou

I've myself been looking for a supplier that would be growing Ce doped YAG or Ce doped LuAG by flux or hydrothermal process (instead of the fusion process these are usually grown through), since I'd really enjoy a crystalline druse of these surrealistically yellow-green materials :-)

23rd Feb 2024 18:16 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

04990780017087121007591.jpg
Here is another of the clusters I had mentioned above, a man-made nickel grouping 18x13mm.

10th Apr 2024 18:33 UTCUdo Behner

here in pforzheim  the center of jewelry industry   the made them usings watts  nickel bath and the n had them gold plated

23rd Feb 2024 18:17 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

03339330017087122158538.jpg
A synthetic nickel from Union Carbide.  In the open pocket were cool little crystals.  Will post below.

10th Apr 2024 18:34 UTCUdo Behner

vapor phase  by decomposing nickel carbonyl ?

23rd Feb 2024 18:18 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

00912860017057513966926.jpg
Crystals in the vug above piece of synthetic nickel 1cm across.

23rd Feb 2024 18:19 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

01733800016017661419371.jpg
One more of the zincites that have a lot of interesting shapes and colors, 3x3cm fov.

23rd Feb 2024 18:42 UTCPaul De Bondt Manager

It would be good if we could upload the elements to the " element " gallery:
I have 2 splendid cobalt cathodes that would fit in that gallery.

Keep safe.

10th Apr 2024 23:08 UTCLalith Aditya Senthil Kumar

Wait, we can't do that? I just bought some depleted uranium off the internet to put on the gallery.

23rd Feb 2024 18:55 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

09044630017056589496886.jpg
Forgot to add the synthetic diamond by GE from 1961, 4mm fov.

23rd Feb 2024 19:06 UTCEd Clopton 🌟 Expert

How about adding "Synthetic" as a locality on species pages?  There could even be sublocalities for different producers, processes, post-mining occurrences*, etc. as needed.

*On second thought, should the "Synthetic" locality be limited to deliberately manufactured materials, or would accidental human-made things like post-mining deposits (Rocanville halite stalactites), smelter mishaps (Polish zincite), or deposits from a mine fire also qualify?

23rd Feb 2024 19:22 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

07937340017087155666643.jpg
Since I've shown my blue-cored V-bearing zircons a few times before in the past, for this latest thread on synthetics I thought I'd feature my monazites. These were grown in a sodium carbonate flux and include all the natural REE (except Pr... excluded for an analytical reason), from an original chondrite-proportioned mix of REE oxides. They took about a week to grow and the largest ones are roughly 3 mm in length.

23rd Feb 2024 20:27 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

Thank you all for adding to this thread and it is a tough question as to just how and what would be a good way to list specimens like this but they certainly are interesting and I believe deserve a place in the collecting world, thanks again.

23rd Feb 2024 20:33 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

I agree with Ed... I don't see why they can't simply be mixed in with natural samples, as long as the locality is explicitly given as "synthetic".

23rd Feb 2024 20:35 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

06914400017087203479990.jpg
Ed mentioned something above and this is a perfect example of this, augite crystals which formed from cooling smelter slag from the Gunsight Pass in Arizona where early smelting had been attempted.  This piece is 3x3cm and the crystals grew in the cooling slag.  The material was even interesting enough for someone who told me, took it to the Tucson university lab and analyzed it.  So, there are some interesting things not always part of many collections.

23rd Feb 2024 23:16 UTCDr. Günter Grundmann 🌟 Expert

Please be very careful about the meaning and use of the terms "Man-Made", "artificial", "natural", "manufactured", "mineral", "crystalline", "amorphous", "synthetic", “growing crystals”, etc. Things are getting mixed up here! It is an extremely complex and complicated subject!

 

24th Feb 2024 04:40 UTCcascaillou

First should be made a difference between synthetic (a specific chemical compound with a natural conterpart) and artificial (a specific chemical compound that doesn't have a natural counterpart).

Then here's more to consider:

If a mineral grew on the ceiling and walls of a mine, or inside the mine's dumps, I'd call it post-mining (and not synthetic, since none of that chemistry was intended)

On the other hand, I'd call synthetic a mineral that originated from some intended chemical processing (no matter if that mineral was the purpose of the process or an accidental by-product). Which would include anything that grew inside a smelter, as well as anything that would later spontaneously grow from the resulting smelter's slag dumps.

10th Apr 2024 18:42 UTCUdo Behner

 the natural mineral paceite   which is calciumacetatocuprate   is long known as a synthetic  blue pigment  to replace lapislazuli or brergblau  in ancient  times    powdered azurite  its also  well known substance for hobby crystal growth   featured in the old classic crystals and crystal growth   by holden singer

24th Feb 2024 03:10 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

02328200017087433079224.jpg
Synthetic crystal of eulythine 3 cm size. Produced in beginning of 70th.
 

24th Feb 2024 03:11 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

09273140017087443037101.jpg
The same under another light source.

24th Feb 2024 03:15 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

09342060017087445079382.jpg
Peprossiite-(Ce) grown in 2023.

24th Feb 2024 03:20 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

06652470017087448098127.jpg
Synthetic corundum boule grown in 80th.

24th Feb 2024 09:13 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

Don't these simply go in [Other] then select the relevant category ?

24th Feb 2024 10:21 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

That's right. But if you search on the mineral name for any of the above examples, these specimens won't show up in any of the mineral photo galleries because these aren't "minerals" by mindat standards... they're, as you say, "other". Some people, myself included, find this problematic, certainly for synthetics that have natural analogs, because sometimes valuable physical or optical characteristics can be gleamed from these synthetic materials that would complement natural examples.

The discussion here suggests that among other possible ideas, that perhaps these examples should be available to find within the mineral photo galleries, but just with a "synthetic" or comparable locality label.

24th Feb 2024 10:46 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

Frank

Fair enough, hadn't really considered that side.

If we were to "introduce synthetic" I think it should be fully described in the name with a descriptor name such as "synthetic" or "artificial" or "man-made" either before or after the name so at to make it clear that is not natural.

But I think I'll stay in the "other" camp.


24th Feb 2024 13:43 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

Frank,
This is what I had originally thought, no way to see them when searching and some are interesting enough to include but I just had no idea how this would work.   I do appreciate all taking the time to look at this issue.
Dr. Grundmann, I also see what you had written, too many possible side areas to consider is very true.
My only thought was that at this time, they are not found when searching mindat and I thought somehow they needed to be.   
Thank you all for thinking about this.

24th Feb 2024 16:25 UTCEd Clopton 🌟 Expert

nter Grundmann's points are well taken.  In an informal discussion like this it's hard to be rigorous, but it's important to keep these things in mind as the idea takes shape.

I think cascaillou's distinction between synthetic (a human-made analog of a naturally occurring compound) and artificial (a compound that does not occur in nature) is useful.

One could consider synthetic to be the result of an intentional, human-initiated process (whether or not it was the intended result).  That certainly would include Frank Mazdab's and Pavel Kartashov's carefully lab-synthesized crystals (intended results) as well substances crystallizing in metallurgical slag (unintended results), and it could be stretched to include post-mining deposits (the mine was intentional even if the deposits resulting from it weren't).

To me it would seem useful for synthetic analogs of naturally occurring minerals to appear alongside their natural counterparts for comparison, provided they are unmistakably labeled as synthetic and thus are not strictly "minerals".  Being able to attach a locality of "Synthetic" would be a clear and convenient way of doing that, maybe with standard suffixes available for clarification such as "Synthetic--laboratory" (Frank's and Pavel's crystals), "--commercially manufactured" (Carborundum crystals), "--industrial by-product" (slag minerals), and probably others.  Post-mining deposits already are generally attributed to the localities where they were found and probably should continue to be handled as they are currently.

24th Feb 2024 22:49 UTCcascaillou

A synthesis is an intended act of chemical processing. So I wouldn't put post-mining minerals under the synthetic category (of course the mine was dug by humans, but no chemical reaction was intended at any point).
Besides, in a practical perspective, some mineral specie found amongst mine dumps might have formed either before the mine was dug, or formed accidentally inside the mine dumps, and in practice, it might be hard to tell.

Of course smelters/furnaces are another story, since a chemical reaction was clearly intended: that is a synthesis process.

24th Feb 2024 22:51 UTCDr. Günter Grundmann 🌟 Expert

Ed Clopton,

Thank you very much, your statement underlines my thoughts perfectly!!  

24th Feb 2024 22:59 UTCcascaillou

PS: I agree that synthetics should be somehow linked to the mindat page of their natural analogue. An easy way would be to allow the use of "synthetic" as a locality (in place of the country).
As an example, if browsing quartz pictures, you would find quartz from the US, from brazil, from madagascar, etc...and from "synthetic".

25th Feb 2024 04:12 UTCFrank Casella

05454710017088340904356.jpg
After reading the discussion I drove over to Sterling Mineral Museum gift shop and picked up this piece-- "Pruskite," from Poland.

25th Feb 2024 05:38 UTCHerwig Pelckmans

Mindat does have a page on those: https://mindat.org/min-46600.html

I agree that adding "synthetic" as their "locality" would improve the "message to the viewer" that these are man-made.

25th Feb 2024 06:13 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

Ah, a dedicated page for potassium ferricyanide because some business opportunist decided to give an industrial chemical a mineral-like name (presumably either for fraud, or to avoid the public outcry of trying to sell something with the word "cyanide" in it).

There it is... a ridiculous overlooked solution to getting the synthetic minerals in this thread out from the "other" shadows: we give our "fake" minerals fake names, and then call the fake names varieties of their known natural analogs. They will not only get site-wide exposure... they'll even get their own dedicated pages!

25th Feb 2024 14:28 UTCcascaillou

For artificial compounds, maybe we could possibly have one single mindat page dedicated to those (i.e. compounds with a specific chemical and crystallographic structure but no natural analogues).
That page could host a list of such compounds, maybe as a table so their respective data could be added (i.e. chemistry and crystal system, as well as physical and optical properties), and of course, that page could host photo galleries of such crystals (pictures being sorted by "specie" and always using the term "artificial" as the locality). 

Otherwise we could have one page for each artificial compound, but that could quickly flood the database with a hundred pages (given the large variety of artificial crystals being produced for industrial applications). And considering that knowledge of such compounds will mostly be useful to gemologists (since those compounds can act as simulants once faceted), maybe the "one page for each compound" approach would be more appropriate for Gemdat than Mindat.

25th Feb 2024 13:09 UTCFrank Mersch

Like every time, a simple post yields in different aspects. That's science to me :-)
I made quite a lot of crystals in my life up to now.

Synthetic or artifical crystals are different to minerals - surely. 
To sell man-made crystals als minerals is scam.

But mineral collectors are increasingly confronted with modified or counterfeit specimens.
On the other hand is growing a crystal hard work and a scientific task.
The work and time to grow a 1cm calcite is more than you would sell - on the other hand: how often is calcite asked as fake?

The improvement of synthetic quartz and sulfur in the last decade is obviously.
I was always teached, that I made "crystals with sillenite structure" or "crystals with perowskite structure" - never a mineral and normally not the sillenite Bi_12SiO20 (ok - I did it once) or the perowskite CaTiO3  (BaTiO3 instead).

Is there a chance to get a subchapter like "lab-crystals" and to put images like that of "Pruskite" with the correct chemical name in?

Frank

25th Feb 2024 13:38 UTCJamison K. Brizendine 🌟 Expert

03487210017088682944649.jpg
Here is a microscopic cluster of hydrothermally grown rhodochrosite crystals by Vlad Klipov

25th Feb 2024 13:39 UTCJamison K. Brizendine 🌟 Expert

06847050017088683462543.jpg
Some smaller microscopic chunks of synthetic rhodochrosite grown by Vlad. I'm not sure what the brown blobs are, but probably some iron impurity that snuck in the autoclave.

25th Feb 2024 13:48 UTCJamison K. Brizendine 🌟 Expert

04689480017088688315425.jpg
Hydrothermally grown synthetic quartz after a first generation of "Pecos Diamond" by Vlad Klipov. 
6.3 cm x 3.3 cm x 3.5 cm  

25th Feb 2024 13:50 UTCJamison K. Brizendine 🌟 Expert

09939030017088689852216.jpg
Perhaps my favorite "synthetic" rock, a broken Guerrero, Mexico amethyst artificially repaired by hydrothermal solution quartz. My original specimen came from Harris Precht. Before the specimen was altered the dimensions were approximately 5 x 5 x 3.7 cm
After the specimen was altered the dimensions are now approximately 9.1 x 8.8 x 6.6 cm 

27th Feb 2024 18:13 UTCMichael Sommers

In conversations I've had with him, Vlad Klipov specifically disliked the term "synthetic" for his crystals. They are simply artificially regrown or "lab grown" (using dissolved natural quartz). They do not take separate sources of silicon and oxygen and create new silicon dioxide - the strict definition of synthesis. I appreciate his logic.

27th Feb 2024 21:43 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

But I don't appreciate his logic at all. It is rotted. Was some special artificial quartz used for the growth of thousands tons of quartz grown in the Southern Urals!? No, vein quartz was extracted from quite known natural deposits for its production.

100% of synthetic quartz is grown from natural raw quartz. The opinion of a person, whose business depends on how cleverly he disavows the fact, that he actually produces synthetics, should be recognized as insignificant.

A lot of synthetic hydrothermal emerald is grown from the crumbled natural beryl on the seed plates of natural beryl. This does not mean that an emerald grown in this way can be called natural or cost as natural. Strictly speaking, it cannot be called an emerald at all from the point of view of gemmology.
 

10th Apr 2024 18:49 UTCUdo Behner

when i got a hydrothermal ca lcite  in optical quality  from russia   i knew they can make rhodos    in sweet home quality   but do not tell  the chinese they make lab grown quartz crystal  specimen by the metric ton in all colors   justnissing rose quartz  so far  as i know
 thea jeanie  ist out of the bottle now  ooops

25th Feb 2024 15:16 UTCcascaillou

List of synthetic and artificial compounds:

The list is of course non exhaustive, but still brings an overview of what's around. 

It should be noted that a few compounds listed under the artifical category actually have natural analogues (notably moissanite and strontium titanate) and should thus rather be called synthetics, but for the purpose of that list I choosed put them under the category of artificial compounds only because their natural analogues were anecdotal (I mean very rare, mostly microscopic and in no way approaching the quality of their synthetic analogues). But if we had to implement these in the database, then they should be classified as synthetics.

25th Feb 2024 17:50 UTCEd Clopton 🌟 Expert

Continuing to try to lend structure to this discussion, it sounds like there is support for allowing synthetic analogues of IMA-approved natural mineral species to appear alongside their natural counterparts with a locality designation of "Synthetic".  Although agreement is not complete, some (including me) believe that should include deliberately created materials, both laboratory and industrial, and materials created accidentally such as crystals formed in industrial glassmaking and metallurgical slag.  Post-mining deposits (including mine fire residues) would continue to appear under the localities where they were found and should be designated as "post-mining" in image captions.  "Slag minerals" formed through natural weathering of old metallurgical slags are a large grey area that would require separate discussion--let's not open that can of worms right here and now.

It has been suggested further to create a single page, perhaps in table form, of compounds appearing on the specimen market that have no IMA-approved natural mineral analogues.   The title and form of such a table are not yet clear.

Am I on the right track?

25th Feb 2024 22:51 UTCDr. Günter Grundmann 🌟 Expert

Ed,

I am convinced that you are on the right track!

With your statement you encourage me to make the results of one of my research topics available on mindat.org. An international team has been researching the role of artificial arsenic sulfide pigments in cultural heritage for over 25 years. We focus on the significant differences between the minerals orpiment and realgar and their (during 400 years) artificially created products.

Here are our most important publications on this topic:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263714439_

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/361824629_

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264118029_

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263445121_

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258240961_

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233713763_

Am I on the right track?

 

27th Feb 2024 22:26 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

02802610017058553188189.jpg
It is necessary to clearly distinguish the minerals of burnt terricones (Kopeysk, Poland, Czech, Germany, Pennsylvania and Kentucky) and underground fires in mines from minerals of natural underground fires of coal seams (Rawat and Chernogorskoye).

The burnt rock in the photo above consists of 60% native iron of two generations. It was collected in the vicinity of the Chernogorskiy coal mine at a distance of some km from the edge of the quarry. All rocks coming to the surface in this area are loose. The terrain is flat and steppe. Therefore, there is a large shortage in the road stone. Some roads around the quarry intersect layers of rocks melted during natural underground coal fires. In such places, durable burnt rocks are mined to repair the same roads in other marshy places. In one of these places of self made diggins of road stone, this block with a native iron weighing 30 kg was discovered. In addition to native iron, olivine, diopside and plagioclase have been diagnosed in this rock. The body of burnt rocks has a distinctly stratified shape consistent with the host rocks and is not a terricon.

There is nothing in common with the melted rails, bolts and iron cables from the terricones of the Kopeisk brown coal basin.

26th Feb 2024 17:05 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

I have come to realize that this field is a lot more complex than I had originally thought.   My main interest was to allow the number of synthetic specimens, like the ones which have been posted above to be available for people to find on mindat.  At this time they are only on personal pages on the site and searching does not bring them up.  I do now realize that the field is a lot wider than I had anticipated and does need to be understood a lot more before anything can be done here.
Appreciate all the input and it made me learn quite a bit from just looking over what others have added, thank you all.

10th Apr 2024 20:34 UTCUdo Behner

as a notrious   crystal grower   i would state that growing crystals  and lab grown crystals  are a great help to understand mineral chmistry and how mineral specimens form in nature  the whow !  effect when seeing a nice specimen  will soon change into the How ? - question   how did form  this way and why  ?

27th Feb 2024 23:20 UTCBen Grguric Expert

03232660017090759876126.jpg
Synthetic bornite I made in the Earth Science labs, University of Cambridge.

27th Feb 2024 23:21 UTCBen Grguric Expert

00678460017090760562701.jpg
Microcrystals of synthetic bornite-digenite solid solution. Earth Science labs, Cambridge.

10th Apr 2024 19:32 UTCMartin Stark

Hi all

hmmm not sure what to say. Working on functional ceramics in a company I saw many synthetic analogues leaving the various labs - just to disappear in one of many waste disposals. My colleagues and I know what we did, but things will not go out to public. And same is true in many universitary labs with focus on chemistry, physics or material sciences rather than earths sciences. Often enough I do use synthetic material as comparison for my amateur mineralogical  assays - and vice versa, I do use natural material as starting point or comparison in my professional tasks.

To stay clear: the artifical materials serve specific purposes, are widely used but rarely recognized. Their presence is rarely even noted. So there is no interest to use this material in relation to minerals....

On the other hand, who looked (from a mineralogical point of view) into a mobile phone, a dentist's cabinet or car, a fiber optical communication unit, a modern light source? There is much more unseen.

Where do draw the line - close enough to a natural mineral or just an artificial derivative?
How about, e.g. garnets like Y3Al2Al3O12 - which we might call a complete artificial derivative until it is found in nature (or in my eyes just another variant) or on the other hand Ca3Sc2Si3O12 which is eringaite and only a tiny (in my eyes as material scientist in industry) step away from grossular - but in the other direction via Y3Sc2Al3O12 not really far away from the mentioned YAG?

So what do we expect from including or adding sythetic material here on mindat? What would be the most interesting part? How to profit most? Is it  physical/chemical  properties? Aesthetics? Recipes for synthesis?

Cheers, Martin

10th Apr 2024 22:37 UTCLalith Aditya Senthil Kumar

Made some ice crystals coated in gallium, and I've already talked about these.
 
and/or  
Mindat Discussions Facebook Logo Instagram Logo Discord Logo
版权所有© mindat.org1993年至2024年,除了规定的地方。 Mindat.org全赖于全球数千个以上成员和支持者们的参与。
隐私政策 - 条款和条款细则 - 联络我们 - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: 2024.5.5 14:58:13
Go to top of page