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PhotosCa-Kutnohorite
9th Jun 2023 16:03 UTCRichard Gunter Expert
9th Jun 2023 17:34 UTCFranz Bernhard Expert
Franz Bernhard
9th Jun 2023 17:38 UTCRichard Gunter Expert
Hi Franz;
Cortesogno et al. (1979) who did the chemical analysis also did XRD and found the phase is a Dolomite Group member. Ca-Kutnohorite seems to occur in Mn-rich strata as the RRUFF database has a Ca-rich, but Mn dominant, Kutnohorite from the Kalahari Mn Field.
10th Jun 2023 08:16 UTCFranz Bernhard Expert
That means, the Mn ions are nicely ordered in every second "layer", but still this layer is dominated by Ca ions. Endmember would be a "Dolomite" with Ca as the only metallic ion... My brain is spinning around now...
Uwe, help, please!!
Franz Bernhard
Franz Bernhard
9th Jun 2023 19:13 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
9th Jun 2023 19:57 UTCRichard Gunter Expert
Hi Alfredo:
It has been demonstrated to be a member of the Dolomite Group so should I enter it an an "unnamed member of the Dolomite Group"?
9th Jun 2023 20:26 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
I suppose so, although I can't say I understand enough about how much cation ordering or structural distortion from calcite is necessary to define something as a member of the dolomite group. Am waiting for a mineralogist to chime in. ;))
9th Jun 2023 20:39 UTCRichard Gunter Expert
Hi Alfredo:
So am I waiting to see what other mineralogists think of this.
Just to add to the data there is a second occurrence of Ca dominant "kutnohorite" published from the Urkut Mn deposit in Hungary. Polgari et al. (2007; Min Mag. 71(5) ) analyzed a kutnahorite with Ca(Ca0.524, Mn0.386Mg0.106)1.01(CO3)2; associated with a calcian rhodochrosite. They did not know what to do with it.
10th Jun 2023 18:20 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
There are other examples of such "anomalous" Ca-dominant "kutnohorites" in the literature on Mn/Ca carbonates, especially from metamorphosed Mn mineralisations/deposits.
PXRD can well distinguish between a calcite-type carbonate solid solution and a cation-ordered dolomite-type carbonate solid solution, but there is a gradual change between them, with broadening of reflections. There is a lot of literature on this.
In principle it must be considered a new, Mn-stabilised CaCa-member of the dolomite group.
10th Jun 2023 11:53 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
In calcite, the stacking is Ca... CO3... Ca... CO3... Ca... CO3... Ca... CO3... and so on, for 3 2/m symmetry.
In kutnohorite, the stacking is Ca... CO3... Mn... CO3... Ca... CO3... Mn... CO3... and so on, for reduced 3 symmetry.
In this mineral, presumably the symmetry is also reduced by the difference in the cation layers, with the stacking as Ca... CO3... (Ca as calcite, but "dirty")... CO3... Ca... CO3... (Ca as calcite, but "dirty")... CO3... and so on.
Presumably it wouldn't matter if the "dirty" cation were Mn, Mg, Fe, some other small metal, or a combination, as long as these were largely limited to the "dirty" layer, and were present in overall sufficient abundance to lower the symmetry. So maybe "calcite-R3"?
10th Jun 2023 18:45 UTCRichard Gunter Expert
Hi Frank and Uwe:
There is obviously a hole in the definitions that require a new phase to be characterized. The Ca-kutonohorite does not appear to be particularly rare in the correct geological context so procuring suitable samples should not be difficult.
Frank, I agree with your thoughts on "calcite-3R" but if the phase is stacked like the Dolomite Group why make it a member of the Calcite Group and not a Ca-Ca dolomite?
10th Jun 2023 20:31 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
But referencing an old discussion where I assert that end-member formulas can't have commas in them, I suspect we may end up with something like:
calcite: from CaCO3 (end-member) to (Ca1-xMnx)CO3, where x represents the maximum amount of Mn that calcite can take in at ambient conditions.
solvus: this will be the 2-phase region with separate co-existing (Ca1-xMnx)CO3 (calcite; see above) and Ca(Ca1-yMny)[CO3]2 (new mineral; see below).
new mineral: from Ca(Ca1-yMny)[CO3]2 (where y is some value less than 0.5 and is the minimum value required to reduce the symmetry from 3 2/m to 3; the formula using this limiting value would be the end-member formula of the new mineral, eliminating the need for a comma) to Ca(Ca0.5Mn0.5)[CO3]2, which is the boundary where any more Mn-rich compositions would be kutnohorite.
kutnohorite: from the Ca(Ca0.5Mn0.5)[CO3]2 boundary composition through the end-member composition CaMn[CO3]2, and then onwards to the most Mn-rich composition on the edge of the solvus with rhodochrosite.
10th Jun 2023 21:21 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
10th Jun 2023 21:59 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
If the "y" in the above formula turned out to be 0.40, for example, then the nominal end-member formula would be Ca(Ca0.60Mn0.40)[CO3]2, because this would be its limiting composition along the CaCO3-CaMn[CO3]2 binary join. But the limiting compositions of natural samples with additional Fe2+ or Mg could be expected vary a bit from that, potentially on either side of the pure binary limiting composition. So the addition of some Fe2+ or Mg might come only at the expense of Mn, or it could also somewhat increase or decrease the Ca0.60. With how long and extensively the rhombohedral carbonates have been studied, I'd actually be surprised if someone hadn't already figured all this out. But maybe people have explored the various solid solution limits without having ever bothered to check the symmetry?
But in any case, one would still have a definitive "end-member" formula for writing simplified reactions and for referencing derived thermodynamic data.
10th Jun 2023 22:29 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
12th Jun 2023 14:35 UTCRichard Gunter Expert
Hi Ralph:
That was the analysis published by Cortesogno et al (1979) Tab. 26, p. 182; no Fe was found. They do not express their formula in terms of the Dolomite group; I re-did it as a Dolomite. The article is in Italian but I can send it to you if you wish.
12th Jun 2023 15:31 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
Normally with carbonates we normalise to one or two cations as we don't analyse for C etc.
12th Jun 2023 16:28 UTCRichard Gunter Expert
Hi Ralph:
What address would you like it sent to? I did not have access to details of their analysis as I do not speak Italian but a translation should give you the details.
12th Jun 2023 22:40 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
12th Jun 2023 23:16 UTCRichard Gunter Expert
Hi Ralph:
I will send it this afternoon.
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