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GeneralCollection Catalogs & Mindat

21st Jan 2023 17:30 UTCKelly Nash 🌟 Expert

Several large collections have been dispersed lately and will continue to be in the future. The catalogs for these collections, when they exist, would be extremely valuable resources, and I can't think of a better home than scanned and on Mindat. I hope that managers and members in general will think about this when they see or talk to someone who has access to a catalog. I can think of several recent examples:

1) In July, Steve Hardinger asked here about whether there is a Rock Currier collection catalog. available. No response was forthcoming. 

2) A couple years ago, a member here stated here that he had Joe Cilen's collection catalog.  That collection numbered ~30,000 specimens and I bet there are several hundred pictured on Mindat. I have a few myself that I would like to know more about. 

3) There was a lot of discussion here about the dispersal of most of the Philadelphia Academy's collection in, I think, 2007. That was 26,000 specimens, and I understand the dealers had some kind of catalog. 

There are several other large collections on the market right now, including a few from Mindat members. Where are those catalogs and don't they belong on Mindat?  (Let alone, the historic catalogs that are locked up in museums - like the Adam Seybert collection catalog at the Philadelphia Academy, from what is thought to be the first significant mineral collection in the United States).


21st Jan 2023 19:17 UTCKelly Nash 🌟 Expert

Following up on item 2 in my comment above, by coincidence, Tony Nikischer mentioned in a post today that he had Joe Cilen's card catalog. I can totally understand why someone would not be keen to scan 30,000 index cards. 

21st Jan 2023 19:52 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

I can see that scanning this many cards would be arduous. But so is climbing Mt Everest or running a marathon. The loss of the information would be an even greater crime to the scientific world (or at least our small corner of it). 

Some years ago I acquired a Roebling apatite (no, not The Apatite) from Maine. The previous dealer label indicated a Roebling provenance but the Roebling label did not accompany the specimen. (The item description did say the Roebling label would come with the specimen but the dealer decided to keep it instead. Needless to say I do not do business with this dealer any more.) The specimen did have an "RS" painted-on label. I recalled that the Smithsonian had digitized the Roebling catalog and made it available somewhere on the web. After hunting around a bit I found the catalog, and the specimen's painted-on RS label matched the description perfectly. Because of this a somewhat ugly specimen was rescued from oblivion, and now resides (or I assume it still does) in the collection of a customer who greatly appreciates mineralogical history and provenance.

In addition, the presence of a catalog (and its level of completeness and detail) can be a very significant issue when I (as a dealer) am considering a collection purchase, and what is a reasonable price for said collection.

Moral of the story: Catalogs should be retained, and made widely public, even after a collection is dispersed.

23rd Jan 2023 18:04 UTCTony Nikischer 🌟 Manager

Joe Cilen's card file is stored in numerous metal card files, alphabetically by species name. The big problem (aside from the number of index cards) is the arrangement and purpose of what and how Joe established his files. He collected not only species, but LOCALITIES for species. Hence, his numbering system, although chronological by acquisition, was not presented in numerical order in his card file. Instead, he filed by species name so he could tell quickly if he had MINERAL X from LOCALITY Y. The card file is nearly useless if a label were lost, as there is no easy way to search the file by specimen number, which was typically on a typed, white adhesive tape label adhered to the sample. I started preparing an excel spreadsheet of his card file so that the specimen number could be searched in the absence of the actual specimen label. I got a few thousand done, but it is a multi-year project to convert the card file to full usefulness. 

I have several other monster collections and card files with similar issues. Someday.....

21st Jan 2023 19:45 UTCEd Clopton 🌟 Expert

This is indeed a worthy goal.  I have high hopes of getting access to another well-known collection catalog in the next year and putting it into an accessible form for public reference.  Time will tell a) whether that actually happens, and b) if so, how long it would take.

21st Jan 2023 20:16 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

If one makes one's own catalogue digitally on Mindat, one has the option of making it public, so that the data is accessible to others after one departs to the happy mine dumps in the sky. The problem with paper catalogues is that typically it is hard or impossible for the average collector to get access to them.

22nd Jan 2023 12:28 UTCPeter Nancarrow 🌟 Expert

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My very old & scruffy (partly loose leaf) acquisition list/catalogue dates back to the 1960's!
In the early days of having a PC, I started to replace it with text files saved to floppy discs, followed later by spreadsheets backed up to Iomega Zip discs, then to CDRs! Now, in order to pre-empt any future redundant technology, in parallel with compiling a PC database, I am reverting to the 'old-school' process of also logging the essential details of my acquisitions in an A4 double cash book!

I now use an MS Access database, and although I did start to use the Mindat catalogue when it first appeared, I found its features much too limited to be of much use to me.
For example, my main 'Mineral Specimens' form (see attached) has fields for Notes, Memos, Analytical Data, Specimen Source, and coded Tags (e.g. RFM for 'Rock-forming mineral in matrix', RB for former Richard Barstow specimens, # for 'Action Required'). Also check boxes for such features as 'Self-collected, 'XRD confirmation', 'Fluorescence' 'Pseudomorph', 'Spare material available'.

I periodically export my main 'Mineral Specimens' Table to an Excel spreadsheet, and that (and the Access DB itself of course) are backed up to a cloud service, but who would know where they are how to get at them? So, if by chance anyone ever wants to see my collection catalogue if I manage to complete it before I go to the great quarry in the sky, it is on the shelf in my study in a blue A4 Cash book!



29th Jan 2023 02:00 UTCRod Martin Expert

Hi Peter
After a disastrous experience with a commercial catalogue that wiped both my collection data and also our club collection data when it did a major update. Fortunately I had a couple of months old print outs from which I recovered most of the data. I now use a self made catalogue on Libre Office Calc for the Club and rely on MinDat for my catalogue with monthly backups to an external source and a physical printout.

I like the versatility of the layout you're using. Is it based on an available template or did you scratch build it?
Rod

31st Jan 2023 17:12 UTCDouglas Merson 🌟 Expert

I suspect he built it from scratch as mine is quite similar to his. I built mine from scratch and have incorporated some of his ideas in mine.

6th Feb 2023 14:44 UTCPeter Nancarrow 🌟 Expert

Rod & Douglas,
Re my "Mineral Specimens" Access DB form, I have sent you PM
Pete N.

9th Feb 2023 17:35 UTCDouglas Merson 🌟 Expert

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This is a screen shot of the catalog data entry form. It is supported by a number of tables. The labels for the primary and associated species fields will take you to the species form where I can check the in collection box. On the species form there is a link to the Mindat species page. These I add as I get new species in the collection. This is running on a PC with Windows 11 and the latest version of MS Office. 

22nd Jan 2023 19:47 UTCRoy Starkey 🌟 Manager

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Hi Kelly and all

I think the question should be widened beyond simply "Where is the catalogue?" to  “What should I do with my collection?”.

Today’s mineral collecting community is increasingly grey-haired and perhaps dominated by people who began collecting in the 1960s and 1970s (certainly in the UK at least). As such, this population of collectors and collections represents a considerable and potentially important mineralogical resource.

In a special event on Wednesday 19 April, hosted by The Russell Society, and chaired by myself, we will present an overview of the key factors to be considered, some of the constraints and hurdles to be overcome, as well as opportunities and threats which may confront us.

We owe it to the specimens, and to those who came before us from whom we have benefited so much, to ensure that our collections are handled in a suitably responsible and satisfactory manner, and that important pieces are curated and preserved together with as much curatorial data and specimen history as possible (and that obviously includes preservation of catalogue information).

To the Mindat and broader mineral collecting community we should ask: 

Is your collection properly labelled and organised such that someone coming to it ‘cold’ would be able to understand what is what, and to be confident in dispersing it appropriately? 

Do you have a catalogue? If so, is it on paper or in electronic form? 

If electronic, is it regularly backed-up and in a format likely to be machine readable in the future? 

Does someone else know how to access it, where to find passwords etc.? 

Do your family members understand the importance (and perhaps financial value) of your collection? 

Do they know who to contact and what to do in the event of your unexpected demise? 

Should the collection go to a museum or university (either in its entirety or segments of it)? 

Is the best route to return the specimens to the collecting fraternity via a sale or auction, or is sale to a dealer a better option?

We’ll be addressing these questions, and a whole lot more, in discussion with a panel of experts from the Natural History Museum (London), National Museum Wales, National Museums Northern Ireland, BGS, The Geological Curators’ Group and National Museums Scotland.

The event will be run on Zoom and further details will be available via The Russell society website nearer the date - see https://russellsoc.org/

To return to your original question, I think there are several layers of complexity here. 

Firstly, for historical collections now assimilated into museum collections there is an increasing trend towards making databases accessible (at least in a limited form) online. The detail available varies from institution to institution but I would cite the Oxford University Museum of Natural History, The Hunterian (Glasgow) and the Natural History Museum (London) as three good examples (check out the relevant websites).

For private collections there are clearly potential issues of confidentiality, security, financial data etc. etc., but in principle it should be possible for well-documented and curated collections to participate in such an initiative. It would be interesting to know what proportion of amateur/private collections are sufficiently well documented and curated to make preservation / publication / archiving of any catalogue worthwhile.

There is often a fair element of secrecy in private collections, people wishing to safeguard their sources, reticence about what they collected and when, how much was paid for a specimen and so on, all very understandable. In general, historical collections are probably going to be much easier to deal with because much of the 'data sensitivity' will now have faded.

There is also the question of 'intellectual property' and where institutions hold/own historical catalogues they may adopt a policy of making the documents available upon request to bona-fide researchers, but stop short of putting scans or digital versions of the whole thing online. 

It would be good to see more discussions of this sort.

Finally, to end on an upbeat note, the image at the top of this post shows one of the wonderful cases of specimens from the Ludlam Collection, formerly on display in The Geological Museum London. The accompanying guide - A Handbook to a Collection of the Minerals of the British Isles (Rudler, F.W. 1905) is an object lesson in how to document a collection for posterity. If you are not familiar with it I strongly recommend downloading a PDF copy - it is one of the finest works on British topographical mineralogy ever published 

https://www.mindat.org/book_details.php?id=42

Cheers


Roy


 


22nd Jan 2023 21:51 UTCEd Clopton 🌟 Expert

The November-December 2010 Mineralogical Record ran a short article on this very subject by Wendell E. Wilson and Don Newsome (v41n6, pp. 553-554) that includes a useful set of guidelines very much along the lines of Roy Starkey's queries above.  As the authors generously gave permission to reprint the article provided due credit is given, I prepared an introductory article of my own to preface a slight adaptation of the detailed "Instructions Regarding the Handling and Disposition of My Mineral Collection" from the original article for our club's newsletter (giving due credit to the original authors, of course) and posted it on the club website at https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Z_szhjtYyfh5MZRuZmJvuUsmAtNfHhN7/view .  Feel free to check it out.
 

22nd Jan 2023 22:32 UTCDouglas Bank 🌟

Don Newsome just sold off most of his collection!

23rd Jan 2023 08:36 UTCErik Vercammen Expert

Can it become a Mindat article?

23rd Jan 2023 17:11 UTCEd Clopton 🌟 Expert

I would be willing to work on it, although it may not happen immediately.

Opinions as to whether the original article as published in MR or the one posted on the MMGS website should be posted on Mindat?

14th Feb 2023 03:14 UTCStephen C. Blyskal Expert

Ed,
Thanks for the article.  I saved it and am making it available to the mineral collectors in our club (Houston Gem and Mineral Society).  As a long time subscriber to MR I saw the article in 2010, but I was still working and nothing much was done towards the ideas in the article.  As I am retired now I am working on making sure my collection will benefit my heirs as much as possible by updating my catalog, making sure all specimens have catalog numbers, photographing as many specimens as I can and putting them on Mindat and using the Mindat catalog to get an idea of what the collection may be worth.

23rd Jan 2023 19:33 UTCRichard Gunter Expert

Hi Kelly:

My catalogue is on Word and is 3,944 kb long and corresponds to 1,781 pages in the Word format. I would not have difficulty posting it to Mindat as is but transcribing it to another format would be quite a challenge.


23rd Jan 2023 22:23 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

Richard
Use Adobe Acrobat
There used to be a free option to simply drop a Word document and convert
Would only take minutes.

23rd Jan 2023 22:39 UTCRichard Gunter Expert

Hi Keith:

I will try that and see how it works. The articles I have posted have taken a lot of work to format and they are a fraction of the size of the catalogue. No pictures with the catalogue as they are posted separately.

24th Jan 2023 17:08 UTCRichard Gunter Expert

Hi Keith:

I have put a test page for the catalogue on my "Article" page to see what the format would look like. I will not publish it until I have more pages on-line. If you wish to see the page it is Mindat.org article.php/4408/0/61322.

27th Jan 2023 01:10 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

I think looks great … But you have not included any of your catalogue numbers if there are any, which might be useful if only a number is on the specimen.
If all have accompanying photos then probably not necessary anyway.
Cheers 

27th Jan 2023 19:57 UTCRichard Gunter Expert

Hi Keith:

I have put ten random pages in my Articles section and added the photos. They seem to be missing something without the photos.

29th Jan 2023 09:08 UTCKnut Eldjarn 🌟 Manager

This discussion is important because it highlights the fact that a collection of minerals should be something else than a pile of rocks...  In many cases a mineral specimen is worthless without information about the correct locality. Any additional information and old labels will increase its scientific, historical and also monetary value. These facts have been stated numerous times by contributors to Mindat. It is therefore saddening to see in Jolyons current live report from Tucson one of the dealers showing "a wall covered with old labels". These should, of course, have stayed with the specimens that may have passed on to new collections in the trade!
A mineral collection without a catalog may easily degrade to a "pile of rocks" at some point. Old catalogs may also be a valuable source of information in the future - in the same way as old dealers`lists etc. It would be a great service to the community if digital versions of such historic information could be made available through Mindat. But to transfer home-made and especially written catalogs to an open digital format may be a close to impossible undertaking.
It was a great improvement to Mindat when Jolyon created the catalog option. Together with other users I had been advocating for this feature for many years. I have also used this option to catalog my complete collection of about 15.000 specimens and currently I am adding new specimen images with the intent of photo-documenting the collection in my Mindat gallery of images. So far the images cover about 15 % of the collection. In this way the catalog and images are readily available to me on my smartphone i.e. when I consider the aquisition of new specimens at mineral shows or when I want to compare data and specimen quality when visiting museums, seeing other collections or offers on the internet. It will also increase the chances that the scientific, cultural and monetary value of the collection will be understood and appreciated when the collection and specimens are passed on to other collectors, museums or dealers in the future. With the the numbers attached to the specimens, images and MinIds in Mindat, each specimen can easily be traced to the information in the Mindat Catalog that can be made available to the public in the future.
If more collectors could actively use Mindat for their collection catalogs  linked to images in the database, we could secure  that important historical information will be available in the future. But I believe that would require some improvements to the catalog and especially search functions. Many collectors would like to keep part of the information private during their active time as mineral collectors. Mindat should therefore consider an alternative to having catalogs "Private" or "public". The alternative should be to allow the catalogue to remain in Mindat and for the confidential part of the data to become public after a given time (as for other classified information).
 

29th Jan 2023 15:59 UTCJamison K. Brizendine 🌟 Expert

Drexel University has a copy of the Philadelphia Academy of Science's catalog likely in a repository somewhere ( https://archivalcollections.drexel.edu/repositories/3/archival_objects/17549 ) and probably is in a format like microfiche. 

29th Jan 2023 20:10 UTCKelly Nash 🌟 Expert

I checked a couple of years ago and it has not been microfilmed or scanned.  If you can find an electronic version I'd love to see it. 

29th Jan 2023 19:48 UTCRik Dillen Expert

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After all I will stick to my home-made MS-Access database, which contains exactly the data I want to have for each specimen, no more, no less. Of every new specimen that I add to my database I export an automatically generated pdf-file card as an extra backup (with only the really essential data) - see example above. And of course, I take care of the necessary back-ups on external hard disks kept on another location (in the near future in the cloud). Furthermore the database can also generate (and access) a directory on a dedicated location on my PC to store documents (photos, spectra, X-ray diffraction data, scans of labels etc.). Because I have no software background at all myself it took me more than a year to construct it, starting from my (also home-made) original old dBase2+ database (1989) (-> dBase4 -> Access 2.0 -> Access 6.0 etc.). The learning curve if you don't have any SQL etc. background is very steep and long. At present the database contains data of 8700 specimens from 3600 localities.

17th Apr 2023 20:59 UTCDouglas Bank 🌟

How do you document your fluorescent specimens in your catalog? 

14th Feb 2023 03:23 UTCLuís Martins 🌟

I find Microsoft Excel to be the best compromise in terms of ease of use, adaptability and accessibility. The Search and filtering options are enough for my needs. A few VB macros help a lot as well.

17th Apr 2023 22:41 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

I've been talking with various people for a while now about an entirely different paradigm for mineral collection cataloguing, and it's something we're going to be building into the mindat app (and significantly upgrading the mindat catalogue tool here on mindat which will automatically sync with it)

The aim is to make it MUCH simpler and faster to catalogue your specimens. 

Watch this space!

21st Apr 2023 03:09 UTCDouglas Bank 🌟

Mindat APP?  What is that? 

21st Apr 2023 07:55 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

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It's something Jolyon has said that will let me access mindat from the phone more natively.
 
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