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GeneralNumber of hours put into mindat

21st Jun 2018 14:48 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

I want to continue to draw your attention to the blue strip at the top of the page and our critically important need for money.

If you have donated before, thank you, but we really do need to ask you to help us again.

We had $1,200 in the first day, which is a start, but if we do not keep up momentum we will not reach our targets and then our future is uncertain.

I did a bit of calculation at trying to estimate the amount of work, as a community, that we have put into this project.

On a rough estimate based on approximating how much time is taken to enter each locality, mineral and photo, we have come up with a figure of 210,467 hours, or 101 man years of collective work.

I want to thank everyone who has donated a chunk of their lives to build mindat up. There are many, who have given more of their time than I would ever have dreamed would be possible. We owe you everything.

And we all, collectively, owe it to everyone who has contributed to ensure that mindat.org continues... Please support us.

22nd Jun 2018 11:49 UTCOwen Lewis

Jolyon,

I don't need to point out to you the drawbacks in being reliant on donations Would an obligatory USD 7.50 membership fee help solve your difficulty? And with first year trial membership for free for those joining after the start of the scheme? An annual fee of USD 75.00 is probably too ambitious but is probably close to the level of financial support you say the project needs.

Does Mindat publish its accounts, even a simple analysis of income and expenditure, with a draft cash flow forecast for the coming financial year?

Owen

22nd Jun 2018 14:19 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

A membership fee is tricky because we've always said that mindat is free and will always remain free.

The accounts are coming - very soon - AS for an analysis of our expenditures that's pretty easy to say that it costs around $100,000 a year to run mindat right now. There are extra expenses such as Tucson on top of that, but fortunately those are invariably covered by the extra money raised at the events. We are looking to money from other sources, in particular grants and support from mining companies - but that takes time. The next two months are the most critical for us financially.

22nd Jun 2018 15:35 UTCDonald B Peck Expert

Jolyon,

Have grants from national mineralogical or geological societies been considered?

22nd Jun 2018 16:13 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Yes, and this is a major focus of my efforts right now. However, I am not a grant writer, and so I am certainly looking for suggestions about who to approach and how.

22nd Jun 2018 16:17 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

Most of the societies tend to be strapped for cash themselves.

22nd Jun 2018 17:18 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Very true. Those that do have cash are the ones that haven't had much interaction with us before.

22nd Jun 2018 17:18 UTCJeff Weissman Expert

There may be some NSF funding available, I did not go through the topics - see https://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_list.jsp?org=geo or https://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_list.jsp?org=ehr, maybe somewhere else in NSF. You'll need to partner with a US based university or museum to increase chance of success, and none of these are immediate and will require written proposals. Maybe other US government agencies have programs as well - Dept. Interior USGS, or Dept. of Education, but I haven't checked.

22nd Jun 2018 17:28 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

A funding proposal has gone in to NSF this week, as it happens!

22nd Jun 2018 19:01 UTCAdam Kelly

Hey Jolyon,

I have no money to donate to the cause, partly due to my 10 month old daughter.

What I would love to do is donate a few specimens for auction?

Pieces ranging in approximate value of $20 -$100 USD

Would also be happy to ship anywhere in US.

Please let me know if this would work.

Adam Kelly

22nd Jun 2018 20:41 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Adam, that would certainly help us - right now I don't have anywhere for you to send the specimens, but give me some time to organize something.

Jolyon

22nd Jun 2018 21:21 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

$100,000 a year to run mindat?!?!? That's REALLY high. Sounds like you may be getting screwed on costs, or there may be some costs that aren't essential that need to be eliminated.

22nd Jun 2018 21:57 UTCGeoff Van Horn Expert

I'd imagine a majority of that goes to hosting the images.

22nd Jun 2018 22:02 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Try living and working in London! Running mindat.org is a full-time job for me in a very real sense of the word (hey it's nearly 10pm and I'm still working) and still there are things that need doing and problems that need solving that I have not had time to look at.

And I've been hearing from people running comparable-sized projects who are absolutely stunned that we can run a project of this scope on such a limited budget.

Anyway it's way way way less per YEAR than what Wikipedia costs to keep running per DAY.

22nd Jun 2018 22:03 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Actually, the data and hosting costs are a sizeable but relatively minor part of the overall budget. We've been pretty efficient.

One of the reasons we haven't switched over to a cloud-based system is that it would be uneconomical for us to do that and still offer free photo hosting to everyone.

23rd Jun 2018 15:35 UTCEdward Bayley

How large is the readership and the membership? Do you get add revenue from the banners as well?

23rd Jun 2018 18:25 UTCOwen Lewis

Jolyon,

From the little I know of what you want to do with Mindat, it seems to me that there are some fundamentals required before trying to raise 75K (per year!) in donations from users.

1. Registration of the business as not for profit (a charity). This you have done in a US jurisdiction. Whether that jurisdiction is more effective for your purposes than domiciling and registering in England, I really can't say but imagine you took appropriate advice at the time.

2. As a registered charity, you'd best seek out a source of an annual grant sufficient to cover Mindat's needs on an ongoing basis, on top what you are able to raise per annum by way of selling advertising space and other services to dealers.

3. Before formally approaching any of the likely grant sources, you will much improve your chances of success by having at least a year (preferably three year) of annual accounts prepared and signed off by a professional accountant. These need to be accompanied by a 24 month cash flow forecast, forward from the current financial year, showing, with the grant being asked for and other stipulated income sources the range of services Mindat will provide and with a breakdown of expenditure between them (this also becoming the basis of your annual management budget, updated every 12 months). These documents show a prospective grantor that you understand the financial necessities and will properly control the disbursement of a sizable annual grant.

I take your point about having promised in the past that access to Mindat was and would remain free. But, in truth, it never has been nor can be so. Rather, thus far, the books are made to balance by generous and relatively large donations from a small minority of members, the majority preferring to remain freeloaders (or are inactive etc.). It seems to me that your impending application for a substantial grant creates the framework in which to move on to a better and more secure footing. Donations might by all means continue but would fund additional Mindat services only, over and above those already funded and in the budget.

Assuming that Mindat has a unique and active user base of around 1,000, I'm pretty sure that any attempt to gather membership fees of USD 75.00 would only be successful up to this sort of level. In short, trying funding to the level you want and by general donation is bound to fail. Don't let a likely to fail attempt to raise donation now interfere with or confuse an application for an annual grant.

One final thought. I'll guess that only US taxpaying members of Mindat can reclaim tax against donations to a registered charity but that is likely to be a majority of the membership? Does Mindat have such tax reclamation in hand with its US donors? This is another possible route getting more into Mindat's coffers. I know nothing of US tax rates but, in the UK, tax of 20 - 40% of the donation would normally be reclaimable.

23rd Jun 2018 19:47 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Owen.

Actually, we need 100K per year, the 75K covers six months plus our immediate legal cost needs. I have no idea how much that will eventually end up needing.

1. We registered in the US because that's where the vast majority of our supporters are, and that's the best for their tax benefit.

2. We're working on this. This is why I hope (although I really can't guarantee) that this is the last time I'll ask for so much. We will still of course try to raise funds, but I am hoping that from 2019 onwards we can get sufficient funding from grants and mining companies to cover our expenses. Unfortunately even with a grant proposal that just went in this week we're not likely to see the money from that for months - and that would cover less than half of what we need anyway (although of course a very significant contribution!). Mineral dealer advertising has fallen year after year and really isn't bringing in enough.

3. I take your point and we are of course doing proper accounts for Hudson Institute and will continue to do so, Expenditure forecasting is reasonably easy to predict, but income is much harder. We have been trying to build up the page sponsorships because even though it's only $50 a time, if people keep renewing it's a continual stream of revenue for us year after year. I would much rather have 1000 people pay us $50 than 1 person pay us $50,000!

Making people pay to access mindat will potentially make our situation worse by cutting off some significant grant opportunities to us. What we have looked at however is a two-tier system where paid members get some preferential treatment. This could be, for example (and note, this is just off the top of my head and isn't a formal business plan!)

* fast track for photo reviews

* your galleries promoted on the home page (if you wish)

* dedicated private conference area for paid members only not visible to public, where discussions about valuation requests and all the other things we usually complain about would be more tolerated.

* Other 'secret' areas would be available, for example being able to review (and comment on) the proposed Photo of the Day selections for the next few days.

* priority access to mindat events (eg conferences, adventures)

* Advance preview access to new features.

* Direct email support

and, once we have enough members to justify the additional significant cost

* access to a dedicated mirror server with faster connection, fewer users and guaranteed availability.

But the database would be essentially the same whether you're a paid member or not.

And yes, donations to mindat are tax deductible for US tax payers! In the UK if we set up a charity (and there is some justification in setting one up as the UK arm of Hudson) then UK donations wouldn't be deductible but we would get an additional 20% gift aid from UK tax payers.

24th Jun 2018 15:19 UTCKelly Nash 🌟 Expert

I've been involved with nonprofit fundraising for many years (for an arts nonprofit). Not something I enjoy, but necessary. Although we do get grants, the vast majority of funds for nonprofits in the U.S. come from individual donations - it's around 70%. Grants are great, but they are usually for one or two years at best, the applications are difficult to prepare, including, for example, qualifiers like a current third-party financial audit, which can easily amount to another $10,000 expense. The foundations usually have a narrow interest, that can change from year to year, and that typically does not include day-to-day operating expenses. They like to fund "projects" they can point at. Money from corporations is a pretty small slice, and it usually comes with significant strings attached.

Generally there are a few wealthy individuals who are providing most of the total (and who get some tax advantage doing so). However, their priorities are fluid as well, and it is really the small but regular contributors who are the most responsible for ensuring a sustainable income over the years. Additionally, the IRS (tax agency) does not like to see a small number of large contributors funding a nonprofit, it needs to be balanced by a large number of small contributions, or they suspect it could be just a tax shelter. The last segment is fees and services, sales of products, etc., which can sometimes be a decent revenue stream, but requires investment to produce and is not usually a high priority or a major source of money for a nonprofit.

24th Jun 2018 18:19 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Thanks Kelly

Yes, this sums up a lot of the issues we have.

Fortunately, there are some other options for longer-term funding which I am investigating.

25th Jun 2018 20:22 UTCmichael sanders (2)

I have made two cash donations to Mindat so far. Mindat is a valuable and very useful service to me, and I'd have no problem paying a reasonable (like maybe $50/yr?) membership fee to keep Mindat alive and available. Not much different than a magazine subscription, I think.

26th Jun 2018 02:23 UTCDonald B Peck Expert

I agree with Michael, but there is a problem with this. I think one of the objectives of mindat is to attract new people to the hobby of collecting (and maybe to influence young collectors to enter the science of geology or mineralogy). One need only read the ID Help forum to see that this happens. I think there would have to be a way for "newbies" to interact and I am not sure a two tier system is workable.

29th Jun 2018 16:42 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

What is the fate of Mindat if the funding goal isn't met?

29th Jun 2018 17:38 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

> What is the fate of Mindat if the funding goal isn't met?

`Several possibilities.

Most drastic is that we go offline. I'd hate that to happen but I can't rule it out.

Other possibilities include having very much more aggressive advertising on the pages (probably stuff unrelated to minerals, eg via google adverts)

And significant limits to what we can do. You probably already notice that the Ste Marie-aux-mines show went past this year without barely a mention on mindat. This is because we had no-one who was able to go on our behalf, and we certainly couldn't afford to send me.

Jolyon

29th Jun 2018 23:17 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

I don't know the percentage of people who use mindat who are actually on a shoestring funding wise. My wife and I have also donated at the last mineral show in Tucson but it is not something we could do in any larger amounts.

I was thinking today about the many Bill Gates foundations and his interest in helping the education and science fields. I am sure this is something you have considered but if not, I did look at the foundations and there are all kinds of possibilities that I saw online.

I do love mindat but since we retired we recently had to reopen an old store we had to have some money flow.

I do think mindat is a very worthy site on the internet and hope you can find funding to keep the site going.

Rolf

29th Jun 2018 23:35 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

Some of us make nearly daily use of the site but have also just bought a house so available funds are for the moment limited.

30th Jun 2018 01:02 UTCMatt Neuzil Expert

I feel with Steve on having mortgage for the next however many years. I'm just 3rd year in our first house. I have at least 5 years of college loans left. Of course if I stopped buying from the main mineral auction sites I could donate a decent sum. I also wouldn't be building my collection either. I'm thinking a small donation or page sponsor will be coming though.

30th Jun 2018 02:04 UTCDoug Schonewald

I'm with you Matt. I'm retired and on a fixed income, but my home is paid off. I chose to sponsor a page and donate an equal amount. I can't imagine life without Mindat myself.

30th Jun 2018 04:20 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

I already sponsor several pages. I'd be happy to do more but finances prevent it at this time.

30th Jun 2018 05:35 UTCRuss Rizzo Expert

This probably won't make me any friends here but I never could keep my mouth shut when I felt something needed to be said.

This is not aimed at anyone in particular.

Right now I haven't got a pot to p*** in... Truck needs a new transmission, owe my lawyer money, medical bills piling up, etc...

That being said; I sponsor 4 pages, this morning I kicked in 50 bucks that I don't have to help out and will buy advertising as soon as I can. If I can manage to kick in a little something you can too. 10-20 bucks, whatever...

Buy one less rock this week, this month, this year and donate to Mindat knowing that you helped keep it afloat.

We can't let Mindat fail.

Russ Rizzo

30th Jun 2018 09:40 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

I wish we could afford to buy a house.

30th Jun 2018 09:40 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

And thank you to EVERYONE

30th Jun 2018 13:50 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

Russ brings up a very good point!

I have said for some time that if users held back on just 2-3 specimens per year and took that money to donate to Mindat, it would surely help the cause at least a little. After all, do we really want to see Jolyon wearing a sandwich board wandering the streets on London?? ;-)

1st Jul 2018 00:50 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

J and a sandwich board - now that's a novel idea Paul... might work too!! :-))

If we can encourage anyone to donate or sponsor a site or mineral all the better.

We should all get on our soap boxes at some point and encourage as many possible.

3rd Jul 2018 21:35 UTCRoy Starkey 🌟 Manager

Hi Everyone

It seems that this is an issue which is not going to go away. I suspect that there is a fundamental problem that people (mineral collectors included) have grown to expect everything on the internet to be "free". This is not sustainable, and Mindat users really need to face up to this reality.

Some of you may recall that I posted on this topic back in 2014

Sponsored pages - where are you all?
https://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,6,333236

and again earlier this year

Personal Sponsorship Appeals - Please Try Another Approach
https://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,6,428743,428797#msg-428797

At the time (January 2018) Jolyon commented that

"Mindat.org currently has 38,466 registered users and 224 sponsored pages, which is less than 1% of users registering a page."

By any standards that is a lamentably low percentage and suggests that some form of "membership fee" / "subscription"is going to be a necessity (it works, for example in the family history / genealogy world).

Beyond that, do we have any professional fund-raisers in the Mindat community who might be able to deploy their expertise and skills to assist Jolyon?

IMHO begging site users to contribute is not going to work - Mindat needs a proper business plan!

I have sponsored a page for the past several years and shall continue to do so - how about you choosing a page to sponsor too?

Cheers

Roy

6th Jul 2018 15:31 UTCAchille Sorlini

Hello Jolyon,

I think the best solution is to pay a yearly fee for using Mindat.

I subscribed two magazines: Le Regne Mineral and Rivista Mineralogica Italiana and I spend more than 100 euros/year for them.

Mindat has 40.000 potential subscribers, so a small amount of money can be the right solution: 10 -20 euros in a year dont' change our life, but they can grant the life and the development of Mindat.

Just to start, I send you 25 euro.

See you soon

Achille

15th Jul 2018 09:41 UTCFlorian Baur

That's sad to hear, mindat is a great source of information.

I nerv thought it would be that expensive to run, just out of curiosity, if hosting is not the majority, what is so expensive? Please don't get this wrong, it's just I'm really curious why these web sites cost so much, you often see projects such as this ask for donations.

15th Jul 2018 10:15 UTCFlorian Baur

Have you considered adding an auction platform to the site? You'd retain a share of the result like ebay does. Of course there already are a few mineral auction sites but mindat would have a great advantage over them: the large database of minerals and the existing user base. Selling on mindat would allow the seller to present a lot of information on their specimens. Auction photos could be added to the mindat database.

If it works out you could add items currently in auction to the respective mineral pages. Over time you would build a database of auction results and access to those could be sold for a monthly fee. There are websites who aggregate auction results for art etc and make a profit by selling access to it. And since minerals are hard to appraise so such a database would be very valuable.

What do you think? I believe the amount of data mindat has on minerals is very valuable and could be monetized. And the money in the mineral world is with the selleing/buying. Offering an auction platform could help get a share of the money.

15th Jul 2018 12:32 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

We ran auctions on mindat 5 or 6 years ago. They lasted about a year as interest waned.

15th Jul 2018 20:08 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

The main expenses are salaries, administration expenses, hosting costs, equipment costs, insurance, etc.

To compare, Wikipeda costs over $60 million per year to run. So I think we do pretty well getting mindat.org for around $100,000 a year.

1st Sep 2018 17:03 UTCAdam Kelly

Are you going to have a presence at the upcoming Denver gem and mineral show?

I would love to donate some specimens for future auctions to try and help the funding issue.

Maybe if several people donated pieces it would be enough for to run a "Denver Auction"

Just kicking around ideas.

Adam K

1st Sep 2018 20:21 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

We had a Denver auction last year, and we were offered one this year. Unfortunately the overhead costs of me flying out to Denver were prohibitive (especially when we didn't have any money at the time this was being offered) so we had to cancel it for this year.

Hopefully an auction can return next year. But in the meantime we would certainly love to take specimens for auction, either online or at Tucson.

Jolyon

9th Sep 2018 00:50 UTCBryan Swoboda

Jolyon,

Can you create a Premium section that’s only available for subscribers? MinDat would still be free, but access to some of whatever you could deem as, “Premium” content would only be available to people who pay $x per year. Maybe shift some of the currently free content to the Premium content.

I’d be willing to donate some premium content videos to this effort. These could be What’s Hot interviews, Dallas Symposium presentations and maybe some other content that would ONLY be available to MinDat Premium members. Maybe I’d continue to post the complete interviews of What’s Hot In Tucson Sponsors on YouTube, as I’ve been doing, but I’d take ALL the Westward Look interviews and post them, as one video, for the MinDat Premium members. In this way the Fine Mineral Show: Tucson would also be involved in supporting MinDat.

I’m SURE you could get some of the photographers to commit to this as well and donate photos that would only be shown to Premium Members.

It’s a bit of a wet clay idea here but I’m willing to work with you in finding new ways of generating income for you.

9th Sep 2018 03:00 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

We probably should start a new thread on the benefits - attributions etc of a possible premium Mindat.

I have always thought that it would be a good idea.

Maybe lead to better cataloging benefits, access to more articles or access to books and CDs- eg we used to have the Goldschmidt CD for sale through the shop but that has gone by the by, perhaps that comes as part of the premium.

Reinvigorating - or actually resurrecting the Mindat shop should be considered.

We perhaps could introduce webinars for premium users. Jolyon gives a number of presentations duriing the year - perhaps these could be the basis of some of these. Perhaps some of the various mineral Symposiums around the world could provide us with the papers and have them available. I could go on ... but not here.

12th Sep 2018 01:07 UTCMatthew Stanley

Sell calendars. Find the best photos on Mindat, get those photographers to donate the image, create calendar and sell to us! I'd think you could probably get $25 per...

Alternatively, create a database of images donated by members and sell framed fine art prints of them.

Heck, make t-shirts, mugs, etc... These pictures on here are worth some money if the photographers are willing to waive their rights for commercial use by Mindat.

14th Oct 2018 13:45 UTCAnother Johnson

Or you could all find a way to help stop all the rampant massive fraud. I estimate it's worth a few digits more than Mindat needs per year, so if 1% of the people made aware is grateful you become the new Voice of the Crystal Lord...

Better yet, show the truth about the frauds and be as kind and understanding as possible to the hurt/depressed/desperate folk who bought in to it for a sense of community and hope. Let them see some genuine care and honesty and share your love of stones that most of them really do love now too despite their reasons. That would help a lot of people all around and probably cement love for minerals and crystals and such into our culture for a good long while.

13th Dec 2018 06:40 UTCmoses brodin

This website uses cookies to ensure you get the best experience on our website. ... Statistics. These stats were generated at 11:12:26 2nd Dec 2018GMT and will be regenerated every 6 hours. ... Average number of minerals per locality

20th Jan 2019 08:00 UTCCanzio Dovigo

Ralph. I can provide u support in the IT. I am an IT company. 300 IT experts. I'll find one of our employee to dedicate to maintenance of the site. I am NOT expert in gems... only Italian in love of gems. Canzio regards

26th Feb 2019 21:37 UTCmichel martin

As a member, I would not mind paying a small fee every year. We just will not call it a membership. More like a family pooling together to save the ranch.

5th Mar 2019 03:07 UTCStephen C. Blyskal Expert

Jolyon, I raised some money selling off some of my petrified wood and used the proceeds to sponsor a page! Getting by on SS and a small stipend is tough, but I will help as I can. I am selling part of my collection every year, and some of the proceeds will go to Mindat.

28th Mar 2019 12:09 UTCMark Kielbaso

Hi Jolyon,

How is the investment coming in the "Minfind" platform?

Will that yield any results to help the future of Mindat?

Best regards, Mark

2nd Apr 2019 00:27 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert

Here is a silly request. Maybe I'm slower at this than some people, but this is taking some time. It's filling out the paperwork, largely behind the scene, for my sponsored pages. There are nine that I am must pay if I continue the sponsorships. Can someone make a single invoice for those nine pages so I only have to make one payment of $450? I noticed that one cannot determine what is sponsored from the invoices themselves, so all you would have to do is make me a invoice for $450. I promise that if you do, I will add another page by April 28 (to match other due dates) so the amount is a nice, round $500. The pages so far are: Chalcopyrite, Corundum, Hematite, Malachite, Microcline, Topaz, Vanadinite, Minas Gerais (Brazil), and Lookout Pass Thallium Prospect (Tooele Co., Utah). I noticed also there are a number of people who sponsor multiple pages. Maybe I'm missing something here.

Thank you.

2nd Apr 2019 02:01 UTCMark Kucera 🌟

Norman,

I sent you a PM a few minutes ago with a suggestion.

Thanks for helping keep us all gainfully entertained,

maybe even educated on Mindat.

Sincerely, Mark

25th May 2019 13:57 UTCCecil Cosse

How do you post messages or anything on a topic? This site is a total mess and extremely confusing. Having to ask how to post a message is just ridiculous.

I mean, how about topic > post message? Is that so difficult?

Can you make it harder and more confusing?

Cecil

25th May 2019 14:01 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Cecil, I see your post here, so you did post it, and so it can't have been too difficult.

25th May 2019 15:10 UTCCecil Cosse

How do you post comments, photos, etc? I do not need comments such as yours. I want to post messages, but cannot figure out how to do it.

Cecil Cosse'

25th May 2019 15:39 UTCJohan Kjellman Expert

cecil,

go to the top of this page, just above the first message you will find a row of message tabs: "recent mesages", "general", "how to", etc.

check these out, under each tab, you will find further subjects, explore these.

When you find one subject that fits your posting/question click it.

Just above the "recent messages" tab, is a little symbol/text marked "New message"

click it - now you can go ahead and create a new message.

cheers

25th May 2019 16:11 UTCŁukasz Kruszewski Expert

Jolyon - it is a pleasure to update mindat, always (:

25th May 2019 16:27 UTCCecil Cosse

Dear Johan Kjellman,

Thank you so much for your help. That "NEW TOPIC" button should be more obvious! That was the key I needed!

Now I just need to remember it! I hope that button solves all of my issues.

Have a great day.

Cecil Cosse'

28th May 2019 07:00 UTCJohn Towns

Spend maximum hours!

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