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GeneralMineral Collecting and the '1%"

19th Nov 2013 22:15 UTCPhilip Persson Expert

Hi All,

Curious what others thoughts are on the '1%' phenomenon in the United States and its impact on mineral collecting. By '1%', I am referring to the growing income inequality in the U.S and the concentration of wealth into a very small segment of the population, which is in turn able to influence the economy and politics in a significant fashion. I've noticed that it seems like in every corner of the collecting community, there is increased reverence towards and preferential treatment of the 'high end' market, or those customers who regularly spend in excess of $1000 or even $10,000 on a mineral specimen. Now, I am not putting a negative value judgment on this, just wondering what other folks think of this phenomenon- is it good in the sense that more money overall is flowing into mineral collecting and the appreciation and preservation of 'fine' specimens? Or does it marginalize experienced collectors of limited financial means, or young people just getting into the hobby?


I have also noticed some of my favorite mineral publications, such as the Mineralogical Record, seem to be catering more and more to the needs of the 'mineral 1%', whether it is 'special issues' devoted to high-end collections, or increased advertising my high-end dealers. This seems to be coupled with a corresponding decrease in locality articles, which I always considered to be the 'meat and bones' of the MR. I know that MR has to combat falling subscription numbers with private funding by doing these ads and special issues, but is this perhaps indicative of an overall trend, where experienced, long-time collectors suddenly find themselves on the margins of their own hobby?


Alternatively, I know of at least 2 high-end collectors who have donated significant time and money to public causes in the name of mineral education, from Science Museum's like the new Perot Center in Dallas, to volunteering at local schools to help teach kids about minerals. This is wonderful and we certainly need more of it, so in that case, I can hardly judge their contributions to the collecting community. Many of these collectors work tirelessly to make sure our major mineral shows stay afloat and have impressive and important exhibits for the benefit of the public, not to mention donating important specimens to university museums throughout the U.S. Kudos to you.


I guess my concern stems from two aspects- a growing disconnect between the academic mineralogical community, and the collector community (I am involved somewhat in both so this is strictly my own observation) as well as a lack of young people who are pursuing mineral collecting and mineralogy in a serious way. I have nothing against the 'crystal hippy' crowd, whose interest in mineralogy seems to stem from the overlap with the supposedly nature-loving jam band/festival culture, but I don't see these people as collectors in the same way that say a young Dave Wilbur or Rock Currier pursued mineral collecting.


Finally, as far as dealers go, is it true that to be a 'respected and well-known' dealer in the mineral community, that you have to offer 5-figure mineral specimens, or are there still dealers out there who cater more to middle-class collectors and academics with limited budgets? Or is it more common to embrace both of these aspects of mineral dealing? From my own experiences selling minerals, I would say the rate at which $15-100 specimens sell is still a testement to the fact that most of the U.S population is middle class, and with income stagnation and growing living expense costs, cannot spend too much on minerals. On the flip side, buying from such 'middle class' collector-dealers almost always results in nice specimens at reasonable prices, something I don't see changing too soon.


So, am I just rambling on here, or do some other people have thoughts on all this?


Thanks!


Philip Persson

19th Nov 2013 23:01 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

I don't think it is the 1%, though they are doing just fine. It is the 0.01% and up who have done wildly well. If you are lucky enough to have a job you might have some mineral money.


There are boomers now who can drop a few grand on minerals and as they are a larger section of the population more kilobuck pieces are being sold.


I met Stu Wilensky in the late 80's giving mineral dealing a go. His family had an antique business, but he wanted to try minerals on his own. He was about to give up, but made a last try with a mineral video business. It took off and he stuck with minerals. At the time we both thought minerals were under priced art objects and much of the recent price appreciation is a reflection of the mineral world getting in step with the art market.


At a garage sale you can get an oil painting for tens of dollars. A good young artist will sell you a canvas for a few hundred. An established artist will go for kilobucks and a dead one for tens of kilobucks. A good dead one will go for hundreds of kilobucks and a dead master for millions. A mine is like an artist, they only produce a finite amount for a finite time. If you regard minerals as asethetic natural objects, then like me, you have to go to museums to see the masters.


However if you regard them as scientific curiosities, then great fun can be had for little money. The trouble with this direction is that it requires a working lab to identify the new species.

19th Nov 2013 23:51 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

"a growing disconnect between the academic mineralogical community, and the collector community (I am involved somewhat in both so this is strictly my own observation)"


I believe this a growing decrease in scientific interest (and perhaps a growing fear?) among people as a whole. There are plenty of people who like to collect pretty (and in some cases expensive) things, but less and less who want to know the science behind those pretty things. Expensive minerals become a status symbol for wealthy people, just like expensive sports cars. I wonder how many Ferrari owners know how to change their own oil?

20th Nov 2013 00:28 UTCChris Stefano Expert

Mineral collecting has kind of always been a hobby of the upper crust. Bement, Roebling, Carnegie, Vaux, Jefferis Reeder- these guys were all well-to-do. Collecting of quality specimens really did not become popular in the middle class until the 50's and 60's. I think, if anything, collecting is more available to the middle class with the commercial specimen mining business being so big right now. To collect at the high-end you really need to have an upper middle class or upper class income (or simply be smarter than about 95% of the market- there really is still a lot of room to build an exceptional collection without dropping major money, if you know a deal when you see one and are willing to wait for it), and I don't think this is new.


I agree with Rob that the current upward trend in the prices of the high-end specimens is simply the market catching up with the art market. The mineral market still has a way to go though- major paintings bring amounts of money well beyond what comparable major specimens usually would bring.

20th Nov 2013 04:54 UTCPhilip Persson Expert

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the comments and thoughts- I agree with the echoes of really top-notch mineral specimens as comparable 'objets D'Art' to famous paintings, but I guess that leaves me to wonder where the other 99.9% of minerals that come out of the ground end up- somewhere in between I suppose. I think Paul Desautels was quoted in an old MR issue as having said something to the affect of minerals being undervalued compared to the art world as well. I do not necessarily begrudge the rising trend in mineral prices, even if they have priced me out of certain kinds of specimens. As Rob said, there is a definite excitement in acquiring enough knowledge and expertise in mineral collecting to be able to spot a 'sleeper' everyone else has overlooked, or a mislabeled or unlabeled classic which can sometimes be had for pennies on the dollar- as collectors we all live for these experiences of course.


Steve, I hear what you're saying about the disconnect between science education and the public; while a lot of my friends are fellow science grad students and I have several collecting partners who are academics, even a lot of the mineral collectors I know really could care less about crystallography, geochemistry, etc, and I'm not talking about the latest American Mineralogist paper or some advanced crystal chemistry topic, just basic understanding of how minerals form, why they form the way they do in certain places, geologic environments and ore deposits, etc. I know I'm an probably not alone in that when I buy a nice mineral specimen (especially a pricey one!) I immediately search the literature for a good paper on the geology of the deposit, the mineralogical associations with the mineral I have, etc. I just think it's fun to know all these things. I guess if I can risk being political for a minute, it seems part of the agenda of the new religious right is not only to de-fund science but to be downright distrustful of it.


and yes, mineral collecting, especially at a high level, is an upper crust activity as you said Chris. I suppose that while I'm still a broke student and new geologist, I do come from a fairly privileged background in that both my parents are scientists and instilled an interest in science in me at a young age, and also humored me by driving me around the various collecting sites and mineral shows- I learned to 'wheel and deal' at a young age though, because when it came to acquiring nice minerals i was on my own. So, I'd collect all the rare and weird Franklin, NJ fluorescent minerals I could find, sell them on the internet (this was in the nascent days of Ebay) and put that money right back into the hands of a few of my favorite dealers who gave me good deals to build my collection. I wonder how many new collectors still do this sort of thing?


cheers.

Philip

20th Nov 2013 05:53 UTCA.A.Faller

Philip:

All of your questions (and thoughts) are legitimate and well thought out. Two things strike me as deserving of response: "trends" involving retail costs of better quality specimens, and "the religious right". I own and operate a shop that started with and still focuses on mineral specimens and fossils, lapidary rough and finished gems, and hand-crafted jewelry here in the U.S. I am 55, and as our generation's children abandoned interest in the earth sciences (at least in a hands on, down-and-dirty way), I can nevertheless put things in children's collections today that I never would have been able to afford as a youngster myself. Or even seen in abundance. For instance, I carry meteorites, diamond crystals, and dinosaur teeth. I can still fill shelves with very decent material from just about anywhere that still produces and saves better than mine-run specimens. That being said, I absolutely understand why a pillow-sized plate of Minerva Mine, Illinois fluorite and associates may cost more than a decent motorcycle. There are, however, what appear to be unjustifiable, apparently inflated prices for things still being mined. In fact, there is a level of quality that I either cannot justify re-selling at a "decent" mark-up, or simply can't afford nor anticipate regular customers buying. I've been hearing this for a while now: "what the heck is going on with mineral prices?" I simply respond with: you should see what the "other guy" is charging. As regards "anti-science" types: imagine, and I'm a Christian, mind you: folks coming in to my shop, looking at Trilobites, and mockingly asking me "who made this?" I studied the Bible, I believe in its' God, as well as other "alien" life forms not in our physical plane. I think the earth is billions of years old: I most certainly don't believe the earth is only 6,800 years old. I love science, just not more than people. I think all that qualifies me as pretty darned open-minded. Which is absolutely how anyone collecting minerals has to be! For even my own family has suggested that I have rocks in my head.....

20th Nov 2013 09:41 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert

So, what sums up your point better, Phil?


This one?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=O92movKagWM‎


or this one?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijZGu6dMWH0‎

20th Nov 2013 10:06 UTCUwe Ludwig

I think in Germany it’s not so extreme like in US regarding to the high-end specimens. However, I think collectors of high-end specimens help the mineral dealers to overcome and may be that helps that the dealers can hold specimens for the smaller pocket, too. I think also a lot of moneyed people purchase expensive specimens to keep their assets safe in view of the next financial crisis.


By the way: Be carefully, if you see a biker with a 1% sign on his waistcoat. It is not a collector of high-end specimens. It is definitely a “Hells Angle” or an “Outlaw”.


Uwe Ludwig

20th Nov 2013 10:13 UTCMichael Beck

This is sounding like occupy mindat. I love coming to this website because I don't usually hear about politics.

20th Nov 2013 22:34 UTCDean Allum Expert

Be careful Philip, you are just one aquamarine pocket away from being a "high-end" dealer.


One little thing which you could do to educate your customers is to have datasheets available for them. As an example, you could post the corresponding mindat Mineral Head page on the wall next to the specimens you are selling. Having printed copies of publications might also garner some interest. Having a microscope available for customers to use might also instill some scientific curiosity.

21st Nov 2013 02:00 UTCGary Moldovany

Ok, I'll put in my 2 cents worth. I have been selling minerals for about 4 years at local shows, mostly "tailgating". I have a wide variety of specimens ranging in price from $1 to $160, with the majority being priced in the $5-$20 range. I usually bring 30-40 flats of material to a show. This year has been pretty good, I usually move around 100-125 specimens at the average show. I have found that I cannot sell anything over 50 dollars, I usually have to discount these pieces so I can get rid of them. What a lot of people do not realize is the fact that only about 1/3 of the attendees at the local shows are "hardcore" collectors. The other 2/3 are made up of people with a casual interest in minerals and families coming in off the street. Most of them simply saw the signs and stopped in for something to do with their kids. The very few "high end" specimens that I have are mostly for show because I rarely sell any of them. This takes place here in NJ so I have no experience with shows outside the tri-state area. There are always a few "high-end" dealers at these shows. They usually do pretty well. I think it's partially due to the fact that they have an existing clientele and these customers always come to them for their fine quality specimens. I have no problem with anyone trying to make a buck in the mineral business. I will always be a "low-end" dealer and continue to offer low-priced, affordable specimens to my customers.

21st Nov 2013 10:13 UTCDon Swenson

As I see it, all collectors and or dealers not fortunate to belong to the 0.1% (or maybe even the 0.01%) club are forced to make choices when acquiring specimens. The reasons they use for their choices are many because the reasons they started collecting were many: trophy hunting, esthetics, scientific curiosity, family bonding, relief from job stress and others. In my case, I eventually decided to limit my collection to those specimens I have found and those specimens others who collected at the same sites were willing to swap. Do I drool at beautiful, high end specimens I see at shows? Absolutely. Am I consumed with envy when I see them? Very, very rarely. I'm 67; my family has no interest in my collection. My main concern is finding a good home for my better specimens. Do I find as many of these as I did 20 years ago? No. But I still get lucky once in a while. This is my "glass half full" view on the subject. I do applaud those collectors who wish to educate others. I hope they don't become discouraged.

21st Nov 2013 14:23 UTCKC Dalby

There are many comments already posted, but being one of the "old farts", I can't help but speak out as well. Like Gary, I too am from New Jersey and recently formed and received a charter for a chapter of Friends of Minerralogy, something which has not been done for the past 30 years. There in lies a rub-finding and recruiting the membership to keep organizaations, chapters, societies or whateverr you wantt to call them, sctive with a good membership base.

I know the collectors, field or armchair, are out there, but finding them, especially young ones, is tough. Due to insurance regulations, more closed than open field sites, the non existence of earth science being taught in schools, etc. add to the frustration of finding youth who will be the future of this hobby. I an ffinding a lack of sharing information from long established organizations akin to maybe we will "steal" your members or ideas and on and on.

Let's face the fact that 30 years ago, we were swapping specimens and trading with people all over the world. Remember when we in the United States were more concerned with aesthetics than those in the European markets. Remember how the Russian and Chinese specimens that came out first where affordable to any pocketbook. The age of technology in the internet has drastically changed our hobby and will continue to do so.

Having had a life changing experience which placed me in a wheel chair 10+ years ago have turned me into an armchair collector and I am always trying to find a way to talk up and re-invent the age out idea of the "Swap".

If you have to buy to obtain specimens, find a few dealers you trust and work with them- I have acquired some great pieces from my few select dealers that would have cost considerably more if I had bought them from others.

I think we all need to sit back and realize that our hobby has taken a new direction-most of us do not have the where with all to travel globally collecting and dealing with the miners, we don't have the monetary backing to establish a high end dealership, but we all do have an interest still!!

We need to encourage the younger generation to keep the hobbby strong and if for anything, keep it at its current level to remain as one of the greatest and most rewarding hobbies an individual can participate in!!


KC DALBY

President

NJFM

14th May 2021 11:47 UTCSharon Waddington

We have a number of clubs spread across the country, South Africa, and when I was editor of the Southern African Gems and Minerals magazine, club newsletter editor for a Gem and Mineral club, as well a host of an annual mineral fair, trying to attract new blood led me to the metaphysical collectors and dealers.
I encouraged them as these are 2 parallel universes; they collect the same thing, but refer to it differently. What a mineral collector may find of value in a "rock or crystal" shop, may have little value to an esoteric person, so inviting them, provided opportunity for mineral collectors.
Of our 3 online stores, over 70%  of our buyers are metaphysical.  It is simple economics.  When I have a number of similar items, I spread their description across several fields, and that works for different people, different audiences.  In other words, I have learned to speak rock, crystal and mineral.

21st Nov 2013 18:33 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

22nd Nov 2013 10:08 UTCRock Currier Expert

In the 1880, similar outraged voices were raised about that only the truly wealthy would ever hope to own a chinese cinnabar and that the price of Russian crocoites were more than their weight in gold. In the early 20th century Gratacap, curator of the American Museum of Natural history commented that a "delicate regard for ones pocket book will not enhance the distinction of one's cabinet." Today a mineral collector can go to Tucson and quickly buy up a collection specimens that collectors of 19th century could only dream of owning. The standards have gotten much higher and the variety and quality of what is commonly available vastly surpasses what was available in the 19th century.

22nd Nov 2013 17:57 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

In the late 19th century there was great interest in coins of high grade. There was a bubble in coin prices which the severe depressions of the 1890's and pre WW I destroyed. Coin prices did not recover for 50 years. Caveat Emptor!


Yes this truly is a golden age for specimen mineralogy. Let's hope it lasts.:)-D

23rd Nov 2013 00:12 UTCWoody Thompson Expert

Good point, Rob. And unlike Rembrandt paintings, or stamps and coins that were printed and minted in fixed quantities, new mineral discoveries may be found that are superior to those which are now considered "The Best". Meanwhile, the choicest available specimens go 'round and 'round with escalating prices and puffed-up provenance. In this game of musical rocks, I wouldn't want to be the last one holding the rock!


But, as others noted above, we are in a golden age with really nice minerals to suit most budgets. That's helpful for building collections in a time when many of our favorite U.S. mineral localities are being closed to the public.

23rd Nov 2013 01:54 UTCJohn Kirtz

Remember the tulip market of yore?

23rd Nov 2013 02:32 UTCMark & Linda Mahlum

I guess I've never looked at the other side of the fence and seen greener grass which I then coveted. I've generally chosen my own circumstances and felt blessed and satisfied.


I think in this ultra-materialistic country (U.S.) we often think if we just had as much wealth as someone richer than us we could buy anything we wanted and the result would be happiness. That might be, more than anything else the factor that is contributing to our extensive and irreversible (IMHO) decline in national character.

23rd Nov 2013 02:57 UTCRudy Bolona Expert

Take it from me. I have lived near Aspen for 23 years. I have worked as a wood floor installer and finisher for the past 17 years in some of the most outrageous homes built in this country. Properties worth as much as 50 plus million dollars. There's no limit to what the 1% percent will spend their money on! This small group of people have changed the price and economics of everything, not just minerals. I have also noticed that WHO is selling the specimen as well as the quality matters. I know that if I was to turn around and sell my collection; I would never recover what I have invested in it. If money is your only concern for collecting minerals then you really don't have a connection with them.

24th Nov 2013 14:31 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I think the mineral hobby/business is the only one where "trickle-down" economic theory actually works! It is the 1% whole are encouraging the collecting and preservation of mineral specimens that would otherwise stay in the ground or go through the crusher and that benefits the 99%.

24th Nov 2013 20:51 UTCCarl (Bob) Carnein 🌟

I agree with many writers. The 0.1% collectors often seem to be competing for the same things--often whatever they've seen in the Min. Rec. or Rocks & Minerals, especially in the "What's new" columns.


Though I'm retired and depend on Social Security for most of my income, I can still find great buys at many shows--frankly, the competition for the top pieces is irrelevant to me. It's the search for good buys in my collecting areas that I find challenging. Also, I don't think many of the "0.1%" collectors are very knowledgeable about or interested in rarity (other than aesthetic rarity). I grew up in the 1950s, when aesthetics wasn't as important or available as it is now, and my collection probably reflects that. (I also taught mineralogy, and my collection is partly a result of the need to have representative material to show to students.) But, I don't see anything wrong with somebody preferring aesthetics (or self-collected specimens or interesting provenance, etc.) over rarity--it's just another facet of our hobby and adds to the interest.

14th May 2021 12:16 UTCSharon Waddington

Many of the top dogs have others buy on their behalf, a geology professor here and a young buck, who's daddy has too many pennies and has taught the son some rocky info. These travelers buy at the top international shows for those who don't have the time, knowledge or even those who don't want to be exposed.
There are others who have mining rights only for specimens, tucked away in dreadful places like KMF.  Wherever, whichever, there is always a pecking order... the various dealers we buy from, for resale, have standing orders for certain grades; the top of this goes to a certain person for Tucson, another miner cum dealer give first pick to the chap in the mansion with a mineral museum in the basement, then the 2nd picking goes to the next echelon or the big boys club, and the mid-range then is only available to select dealers.
A challenge with localities such as the Congo is, that few with knowledge have been there. Very few blogs, articles and studies are available online.  The miners themselves would never give a precise locality, as that would be slaughtering their golden goose, so their pickings are moved to the first or 2nd rough market, and then on to those who have the means or connections to move the stuff to the next level of dealers / buyers etc.  Many suppliers depend on third party transportation.  The truckers are clueless about minerals, and at least a third of the loot is spoiled by the time it reaches Johannesburg.  Not good economics.
There are wholesalers who sell the bottom end to small rock shops , who in turn don't understand the difference between that and hand picked, trimmed, cared for specimens.  It's a viscous cycle.
Being at the end of the world in Southern Africa, yes - we are close to the treasure, but we have to put in a lot of work before we present out goods at a fraction of the Northern Hemisphere market value.
The cartwheels we have to spin to get small parcels to their intended recipients, you would likely find beyond believable.
At the end of the day, these are all toys for grown ups and generally, people have short arms and deep pockets, yet they'd pay many times more if we were down the road or at a local show.
There are many challenges, and finding regular as well as reliable suppliers is the search for the Unicorn... but on we go.

25th Nov 2013 03:58 UTCJohn Kirtz

The great thing about mineral collecting is that it allows for kids from 5 to 95 to participate. How and why is completely personal. When on a dig I will pick up things that most leave behind and the kids I give them to are jazzed. As those kids grow up they will upgrade their collection as they are able. Those that grow up to be Doctors etc.may acquire a "high end collection" but a 12 year old that picks up rock near his house may value and be enriched by his collection equally. Our lives are enriched by the people in them and a mineral collection is pretty dang awesome too!

26th Nov 2013 22:38 UTCRock Currier Expert

I don't think the desire to own things and the drive to out do the Jones is limited to the USA. All one has to do is to visit some of the grand homes/palaces of the really rich around the world to understand that this is a general human condition and not anywhere limited to the USA. How many here have visited the Winter Palace in Russia? I wonder what was spent on the wooden floors in those 500+ rooms (each one with a different design.) let alone the rest of the vast collection of decorative arts on display let alone on what is not on display.

27th Nov 2013 17:09 UTCDonald Peck

I think you are right, Rock. Have you ever toured Buckingham Palace? Fabulous! I see these places as museums where great art is being preserved for the future. When they are open to the public, I am grateful for the opportunity to see them. The same with great mineral specimens. They are Mother Nature's works of art. And those that can afford them are preserving them for the future.

28th Nov 2013 00:17 UTCPhilip Persson Expert

Hi all,

Thanks for all the great responses and thoughts! Hope I didn't open too big of a can of worms with my initial posting... :)


I would agree with those who say that today is the 'Golden Age of Mineral Collecting'- never before has the present abundance of fine mineral specimens existed; fed by increasing globalization, demand for minerals and natural resources (especially in the Asia-Pacific region) and the advent of the internet and E-commerce. Indeed, reading mineral catalogues or advertisements from 100 or 150 years ago makes you realize that a pyromorphite or scheelite or calcite from China that today might cost $50 would be considered a 'superb' specimen at that time and cost a lot more than $50 was equal to back then. Reminds me a bit of the 'mushroom' Rubellite tourmaline from the former Burma featured in a painting and prominent mineral catalogue from the 1840's, which cost the collector something like $150 at the time... looking at it, i'm not sure if I would necessarily pay that for the same specimen today!


I guess my concern is not so much that 'elite' collectors with a lot of disposable income exist in today's mineral collecting world, it is how much of the market and the attention of dealers and the mineral media they comprise relative to how few they are in numbers- so, I don't 'hate the rich' for being rich, nor am I trying to discount their contributions to the preservation of fine minerals and the continuation of our hobby. And Justin, if your two videos, of course I'm gonna chose the Lou Reid one... C'Mon... ;)


And yes, Reiner, I would sort of agree; mineral collecting is one area where 'trickle down economics' actually works- as an example, I know several semi-professional mineral specimens miners here in Colorado- they have told me that the very best specimens from a years production; say the top 10 pieces out of 1000, can be sold to high-end collectors at prices which basically subsidize the whole operation and also allow them to pass on lesser specimens at fairly reasonable prices to many other collectors. Now, as for what makes these certain 'elite' specimens so exponentially more valuable than other, visually quite similar specimens I have no idea, but I think beyond being 'iconic' or lacking even the slightest 'Wilbur' ding, there is a certain amount of smoke and mirrors at play here.


In any case, I feel very blessed to have fallen into mineral collecting at a time when I can dig my own rare minerals, almost instantly ID them through websites like mindat and the RRUFF database, connect with other collectors on the internet who will trade me green paper for said ugly rare minerals, then use this money to buy minerals for my own collection, or put gas in my truck for the next field trip... not to mention being able to walk into a tent in Denver or Tucson and see literally tens of thousands of nice specimens laid out on a table at often bargain prices from remote corners of the world. So, in that case, kindly excuse my complaining... :)


cheers,

Philip

29th Nov 2013 06:12 UTCPeter Szarka

removed

29th Nov 2013 12:42 UTCEd Clopton 🌟 Expert

Thanks to Reiner Mielke for pointing out the "trickle-down" effect. I have shared Philip Persson's concerns for years, but have grudgingly acknowledged that the existence of a market for a handful of specimens worth half what I earn in a year among a few extraordinarily deep-pocketed individuals drives the system that also produces and markets the more modest specimens that populate my collection.


My frustration is somewhat relieved when laymen (friends, co-workers, general public at our local club show) are as awed and enchanted by specimens from my humble collection as I am by the pictures in Mineralogical Record's ads and vanity supplements (and by actual exhibits when I can afford to travel to a big show like Springfield). Even a modest collection can inspire wonder in the right setting--and one can take satisfaction from winning a ribbon with a competitive display of thumbnails only two or three of which cost more than $20.


As for this being a "golden age" of mineral collecting, I both agree and disagree. Yes, one can purchase an unprecedented range of good-quality specimens today, but field-collecting one's own is unprecedentedly difficult. Opportunities do exist, but they are fewer, harder to access, and often more expensive than ever. I try to include at least one self-collected specimen in every display I put together, but sometimes it's a stretch.

30th Nov 2013 10:33 UTCChristian Auer 🌟 Expert

My input on that theme, a true story!


Over the last years my mother was trying to get more and more infos about our forefathers. Just last year she found out that my arch-grandfather, a Mr.Evers had also a collecting virus like me!! He collected plants and had a very large herbaria, started back in 1860 till about 1910.

His favorite plants was Habichtskraut http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habichtskr%C3%A4uter. He travelled quite a lot to countries around the Mediterranean Sea, which wasn`t that easy as it is nowadays. He wrote down all his travels very exactly!

When he died his collection came to the Joanneum in Graz, Austria. Last spring I was able to go there to see the collection - still over 20.000 papers with dried plants, all exactly described. Many, many type descriptions too! The people there told me that they even prefer to work with his descriptions because he always wrote several pages per plant and not only 2-3 sentences like most others at that time.

I really was overwhelmed to see the work of my forefather!

By the way he was married and had four children.


Why I am telling you this?

He had a rich person in the background, a patron or mentor as we say in German who paid for his life, his travels, his collecting, his family!

8th Dec 2013 15:21 UTCJohn M Stolz Expert

The original post asked; "is perhaps indicative of an overall trend, where experienced, long-time collectors suddenly find themselves on the margins of their own hobby?"


Why would anyone feel this way? Who among us resents that what used to be a $50K specimen 10 or 20 years ago is now a $500K specimen and that this price escalation is driving us out of our hobby? Could it be possible that there are no collectors licking their chops because the $500 mineral they bought 10 or 20 years ago is now worth $5000? Can it be that experienced collectors have come to expect procuring outstanding specimens at bargain-basement prices?


Maybe I'm a bit sensitive on the subject, but when I hear the term "experienced collectors", I somehow don't think of someone who's experienced at buying a mineral specimen, it seems to speak more to someone who's experienced at going out into the wilderness and finding one. I note my sensitivity on the issue because, well, I don't go out into the wilderness and collect minerals; I sit at my laptop and buy them. Sometimes I get on a plane and go to a place where a bunch of folks are selling minerals, and I buy even more of them. I don't think I'm experienced at that, any more than I'm experienced at going to the supermarket. But, based on some of what I read on occasion here at Mindat, I sometimes feel like a second-class collector because I don't go out and hunt my own minerals--I buy them shrink-wrapped and insulated from nature.


OK, I'm drifting off subject: my point is, I don't think that most self-collectors are marginalized by a means of pursuit that they don't participate in. And when their efforts in time result in happen to result in the discovery of a killer specimen, then how is that a marginalizing experience? Oh, and the communing with nature, the getting away from the stink of the city, the clearing one's head, and the reordering of priorities in life is a hell of a nice side benefit. Hell, I think I'm going to go rock hunting right now.


Well then, so what about the guys that throw their money at their passion? Are they getting marginalized? Well, yeah--if they think they ever had a shot at those kind of minerals in the first place. Personally, I don't think that way. And what's more, it seems to me that anyone with those kinds of expectations is probably out in the aether somewhere--waaaaay out in the aether.


In fact, I think the opposite may also be true: Yesterday, I went to an impromptu gathering of local mineral dealers in the San Francisco Bay Area. As can be expected, it was a fun couple of hours. But I observed an interesting collecting phenomenon: A fellow collector--whom I don't know--came across a gorgeous N'Chwaning Rhodochrosite. And, the price was in my mind, surprisingly low because it wasn't perfect, but it was close, the kind of piece that you may not ever be able to trade up on. And yet, the guy, who clearly wanted it and "needed" it for his collection, was doing the agonizing back and forth with lots of sweat on the brow that most of us do--because good deal or not, it's not an inconsequential sum of money. I even joked with him that as soon as he put it down I was gonna pick it up, but no worries because I already had one of those. I'm sure the dealer was pleased with me--I told the collector that this was a great opportunity for a specimen like that. But the guy put it down, and walked away (but, I was glad he came back 30 minutes later and bought the piece!).


So the long and short of it all is I don't think its such a bad thing that the best specimens are commanding such high prices--because sometimes they're not. There are plenty of fantastic specimens around to prevent a pressure cooker environment like that existing for the great dead masters from ever happening here. And in any case, go figure; it's human nature. And if you wonder what I mean by that, I put my thoughts down here...

8th Dec 2013 21:38 UTCRock Currier Expert

When the average collector goes to Tucson and visits the booths of high end dealers, there is always sticker shock. That comes immediately after he realizes that the two zeros after what he thought was a reasonable price turned out not to have a decimal point before them. The realization starts to sink in that if this is reality then they had better take up micromounting and this is where the feeling of marginalization sets in and denial and complaining begin. Of course they are glad of their collection is worth so much more than they thought it was, but every collectors worth their salt (see best minerals halite), if given their choice, would rather their collections were worth less if they could still buy specimens for the same prices that they did in the past.

8th Dec 2013 23:13 UTCJeff Krueger

Hello Everyone,


I am so glad that Phillip opened this discussion which I feel is the best snapshot of the current state of mineral collecting I have seen.


I returned to mineral collecting a couple of years ago after a hiatus since the mid-1980's. The hobby I loved as a child has decidedly a new face and my reintroduction has been jaw-dropping. If I may I'd like to list some of the changes that you all have mentioned above:


<*> • the easy availability of information about localities (yeah MinDat!), species, etc.,
<*> • the impact of the internet in creating a truly global marketplace (mine to market in some cases),
<*> • all the new great localities in Asia, Former Soviet States, Africa and elsewhere due to the global demand and prospecting for diminishing earth resources,
<*> • the heightened awareness of connoisseurship (from provenance to recording the level of the mine a specimen is from to improved extraction techniques leading to flawless specimens),
<*> • and, yes, the astronomical prices that rarefied pieces now demand.



I think Phillip was right to frame the discussion about the stratified silverpick marketplace within the context of the larger socioeconomic forces that are squeezing out the middle class in America and elsewhere in the Westernized world. The changes within the marketplace follow the changes in society's class structure. While I too am often constantly frustrated by specimens who's prices are out of reach to me I also am mindful, as others have already mentioned above, of the numerous tangential benefits to the hobby (and my collection) that are a result of all this money pouring into the market.


Many voices more experienced than I have already weighed in so I will just add one observation that may be new to the conversation. There is a tendency within the retail world that the luxury items of the very rich are aspired to by the status-minded among the rest of us. The latest designer watch will be immediately knocked off and sold at a fraction of the price in an alley behind the Fifth Avenue (High Street) jewelry store to meet this less-well-heeled demand. Now that prices for the most coveted mineral specimens have reached the stratosphere, auction houses (such as Heritage) and others who cater to the jet set are taking notice. I am starting to see decorator mineral specimens popping up more prominently in glossy decorator magazines. I am hoping to see mural sized limited edition Jeff Scovil photographs for sale in chi-chi downtown art galleries soon.


Now I can hear the wincing coming from my fellow Mindat-ers: "Minerals playing as fashion fad playthings? Disgusting!" And I would agree. We collectors know that the thoughtful study of minerals can lead to a life-broadening understanding of chemistry, crystalography, natural aesthetics, geology, mining communities, etc., etc. If I foresee a coming "fashion" for minerals among the wealthiest do I also foresee a dawning of a Second Enlightenment with gentleman and gentlelady amateur scientists sharing their independent research in private scientific salons?! No, I'm afraid not. Its more likely that a mineral "fad" among the 1% will have the longevity and depth of Honey-Boo-Boo. (Please don't look up that reference.)


Rather, I know that where the elite trend setters go, the masses follow. I am positing that with the increasing money flowing into the fine minerals investment sector (;-)), that there will evolve an awareness and fashion among the moneyed class for these pieces even greater (yet more trivial) than today. However, this will create a groundswell of interest among general society. (Something like I remember from the 1980s where a swell of people of all ages and incomes found something within the hobby to enjoy.) Like any fad, hula-hoops or tulip bulbs, it will pass but we know that minerals (and fossils too!) are so intrinsically addictive that many new recruits will get hooked for life and the mineral collecting community will gain another influx of fresh youth and energy. And in the end, isn't the lack of interest among the young in geology (and science and math) really the biggest problem our hobby and societies are facing?


Cheers,

Jeff

9th Dec 2013 04:32 UTCPhilip Persson Expert

Hi All,

Interesting points. I suppose that while I can't argue that we are in a sort of golden age of mineral collecting as far as 'silver picking' and being able to find every possible mineral at every price range on the internet or at a mineral show goes (Which I do plenty of), I also feel that as other have commented here, successful field collecting is getting harder and harder. This is due to many factors, most of which are not related to financial means- for example, I do a lot of field collecting in Colorado- typically at least once a week year round, weather permitting (there is usually somewhere in the state sunny and snow-free to collect, even in the winter). I am mostly interested in rare species (my criteria for an interesting mineral is that it must be either well-crystallized in macroscopic xls. or geochemically unusual), and since I'm beginning to doubt I'll ever find the next Sweet Home Mine, I'm focusing more on the rare species. Many of these 'classic' localities for various rare species, especially pegmatites, have not been visited in decades and there are still some very nice things to be found with some patience and literature-searching. However, more and more, I drive hours to a locality I've researched extensively to find not only the dreaded 'No Trespassing' sign, but a few more signs alluding to the number of semi-automatic weapons the landowner has, and his/her propensity for using them on new visitors. When I am able to actually get to the locality, there is often nothing left of whatever the locality was famous for, or another collector has already cleaned it out (with a rare species from a single locality, it often only takes 2 people interested in the occurrence to result in the first person there finding great stuff and the second person (such as myself) finding essentially nothing). Furthermore, I can say from my limited experience as an exploration geologist in the mining industry, collecting in active mines nowadays is virtually impossible- liability concerns, production concerns, and safety/access regulations surrounding modern mining operations in the developed world mean that 'specimen contractors' such as the AZ collectors who arranged to go into Morenci in the 80's/90's, etc.. are virtually non-existent any more. I'm not saying you can't find great minerals yourself any more, it just requires a little more time, effort, and let's not forget money than it used to perhaps. Growing up 10 minutes from Franklin, NJ, which got me hooked on minerals initially, I quickly learned the 'archeology' of dump collecting- how to spot someone else's old hole, how to pay attention to local road construction projects, which psuedo-legal old dumps could be collected at night or at certain times, etc. I also learned how to ID rare Franklin species which initially all looked like crud on a rock, how to ID the rare fluorescents, and even trickier, how to eyeball an old milk crate full of massive minerals in a former Franklin miner's basement *without* a U.V light, spot that nice 2-pound esperite or margarosanite in daylight, and walk away with it for fifty bucks. Moving to Colorado, I quickly realized I had been spoiled somewhat in Franklin, but now I could collect *actual* euhedral minerals, which I saw required a lot more physical work to extract from solid rock than digging through the old Franklin/Sterling Hill Dumps. I also realized that the giant Illinois fluorite's and old European minerals I'd been buying around Franklin as cheaply-priced 'worldwide' minerals (as many Franklin collectors call all non-Franklin minerals) might be worth a little more than I paid for them, and that I might never find them that cheaply again. Keep in mind, I'm only in my late 20's, so this wasn't that long ago. So, I applied my 'Franklin skills' for ID'ing ugly rocks into Colorado's version of Franklin minerals, the rare earth element pegmatites. There are probably hundreds in Colorado alone, and I'm certain some of them have new species waiting to be described. Anyways, I'm not bitter towards the changing price dynamic in minerals, nor do I judge those who don't field collect their own minerals. At this point in the game, I think we need every mineral collector we have- a recent trip to the New Mexico Mineral Symposium in Socorro (a wonderful event if you've never been) where I think I was the youngest person by ~30 years, made me realize young people aren't getting into minerals the same way they were in the 50's or 60's (or perhaps they just aren't going to the New Mexico Mineral Symposium! ;)


cheers,

Philip

9th Dec 2013 15:12 UTCPhilip Simmons

Hey Philip,


You weren't the only one at the Symposium that was under 50! ;)

11th Dec 2013 15:20 UTCTom Bennett

For me the hobby is 100 % about field collecting and all the good things that come with that.

I go to shows but rarely spend any significant dough - I appreciate things that you can hold in a hand so $ is really not a problem.

I would rather have something I found than bought - that might be the essence of the particular strain/category of the Rock hounding bug I have.

But I dont begrudge anyone who wants to spend/sell what they want and I love talking to people who have traveled the world in chase of the rarest of rare ....

I guess what I am trying to say is there is still room for the little guy in the hobby.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8104/8527943869_a280e1aec3_c.jpg

12th Dec 2013 09:31 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

We are mistaken to assume that there is any such hobby as "mineral collecting" - There isn't. It's a constellation of different mostly unrelated hobbies whose participants do not necessarily have anything in common other than that their hobbies involve rocks. We have field collectors, who love crawling around in mines and quarries with hammers and swap stories of dangerous adventures over a few beers. Species collectors, who like arguing over lists and socializing with lab technicians. "Trophy" hunters, who feel more at ease with collectors of paintings and antiquities than they do with field collectors. Micromounters..... etc. All very different hobbies, and no magazine should be expected to satisfactorily appeal to all of the above, although some try.


Assuming that these disparate groups have lots in common with each other and can all enjoy reading the same magazine is sort of like assuming that players of golf and american football have the same hobby because they share an interest in balls. And if a football fan started complaining that the golf magazine didn't have any articles of interest to him, you'd all just think he was nuts. Yet we somehow expect our mineral magazines and shows to appeal to all groups?

12th Dec 2013 14:36 UTCTom Tucker

Alfredo, as "mineral collectors" I don't think we are as disparate as you suppose. Our common interests are minerals, in whatever form. Your examples of sports equivalents are all using totally different "balls", none of which would fit within the other activity. In our avocation any given "crystal" can be appreciated across the board by all of the various interest groups you mention, just to a different degree. Any natural crystal can be appreciated by the field collector, the micromounter, (no mater the size), the "silver picker", the professional "mineralogist".

But I think we've gotten off topic. We're a diverse group, and we all need to appreciate the interests of the other "niches" in our collecting society. By the way, there are "top 1% 'ers" who are also active field collectors and micromounters, all at the same time.

15th Dec 2013 15:43 UTCRay Ladbury

My $0.02:


In part, what we are seeing is the consequence of "easy money" monetary policies coupled with disillusionment with traditional investments (stocks, bonds) and hedge investments (commodities). Gold has lost its luster. Petroleum has burned quite a few. Gemstones have been a long-time favorite, but the steady inflation in prices of the only gemstones that are at all liquid suggests there isn't much easy money to be made. The wealthy are looking for an investment that stands a chance of appreciating, one where a degree of expertise (their own or hired) can lead to a decent return. And in the mean time, they can show off to their friends. You are seeing the same trends in art and other collectibles. It will end in tears, of course--just like any bubble.

27th Jan 2014 13:50 UTCTom Shango

I was talking about this subject a while back with my kids, as we collect together. My son (9 years old) pointed out that grandma had the best rock in her collection, a nice big diamond my dad bought her some 20+ years ago when business was good :) plus she has some rubies, emeralds, opals... So she is currently in the lead :)

We enjoy the good stuff at prices going up to $50, some great looking stuff can still be found up to that price. + we like looking for stuff together and learning about this stuff from books, friends shows... So the "time spent" to us is more important than the price of anything.

A great hobby as spending time admiring anything from nature is time well spent.


All the best.

28th Jan 2014 08:01 UTCDale Foster Manager

From a purely personal perspective, the high end of mineral collecting doesn't bother me in the least. If there are people who have the disposable income to put into it then it is their business not mine. I don't consider them to be a 'better person' because they can afford it and I don't envy what they buy because for the most part it is outside my own personal sphere of mineral interest. Of course I admire the beauty or rarity of such high end specimens but I don't feel the need to own them.


By contrast my own collection is quite humble and contains material some folk would probably ask "why the hell does he have that?", well in most of those cases it is because I found it myself and I like it and it has some meaning within the sphere of my collecting interests.


I both self collect and buy specimens but I always like to understand something about the setting and formation of the material and am not really focussed on aesthetics, sometimes the material is beautiful, but other pieces look quite mundane, but it is all part of the fun of the hobby.


In regard of what makes a respected dealer, personally I don't feel it is how expensive their stock is, for me it comes down to their integrity and how they treat their clients. Now I have heard a few things about how some dealers behave and personally I wouldn't give such people any of my money even if I was the richest man alive.


I can imagine that some collectors and maybe the new guy can feel marginalised when seeing so much high cost material, but they should not become downhearted by it, the diversity of the mineral world means that there are specimens out there to satisfy all levels of interest without it becoming a financial nightmare.

28th Jan 2014 17:10 UTCDonald Peck

Well said, Dale

28th Jan 2014 18:19 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Ditto, you beat me to it Don.

28th Jan 2014 22:29 UTCWoody Thompson Expert

This is nothing against the 1% (both collectors and dealers), many of whom are good dedicated mineral enthusiasts. As some have noted, we can appreciate the trickle-down economy, in which mining ventures to smoke out the choice and costly minerals often yield lesser specimens at affordable prices, and from all over the world, that are within reach of the rest of us.


As I see it, the problem with the high-end pricing inflicted on the 1% is how it reduces "upward mobility" for the 99%. Many of us veteran collectors started as kids, back when we were happy to collect most any rock from anywhere. Over time we learned about minerals, developed a keener eye for specimen quality, and commonly have resorted to the silver pick to enhance and fill gaps in our collections.


This brings many of us - sooner or later - to the point where the grossly inflated prices of the best minerals (and often of those that are not so good!) make it difficult to keep improving the rock pile. In this situation, collection growth can stagnate sooner than it did when better specimens didn't cost the equivalent of a new house or car.


I realize this is no concern to the person who self-collects or swaps for most of his/her collection (more power to them!), but price inflation combines with declining access to collecting sites to further limit our aspirations these days.


Rock on...:)-D

28th Jan 2014 23:52 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

Dale hit the proverbial nail a hundred times over with his comments, and most folks have had very good comments regarding the 1%, but to me all this talk is silly.


When it comes to mineral collecting, no amount of venting on a website is really going to change anything. The 1% crowd is going to do their thing just as the self-collectors, micromounters, or silver picks. In the end, everyone has their own niche when it comes to minerals and what appeals to them. I have seen some of the specimens "collected" by the high-enders and while they can be breathtaking, I have also seen fantastic collections where no specimen cost over $50. Still, others have built great collections only by self-collecting. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is don't let the other groups intimidate and/or dictate what type of collector you want to be. There is definitely room for everyone!

2nd Feb 2014 14:12 UTCJohn Wilda (2)

Philip, you have started one of the more interesting conversations I have seen on Mindat. I think Tucson is the epitome of what mineral collectors are all about. There is something for everyone. I think the real high end "investor/collectors" buy at the Westward Look. My example is a specimen of Chalcedony from Java I bought for $30. from a dealer in the vicinity of the Days Inn. The next day, I saw a lesser quality specimen for sale at a dealer at the WL for over $300. The 1% are driving up prices, BUT there are still dealers who offer bargains and fair prices. I think the investor looks at a beautiful mineral specimen as "art". But, if you shop around we can all find specimens at affordable prices that we, individually, consider "art". Rudy is right, the 1% have changed the economics of everything: at everyone else's expense!

10th Feb 2014 01:53 UTCNelse Miller

I have held off making this comment but decided what the hell. Many of the expensive, high end specimens I see offered for sale come from parts of the world we would definitely call underdeveloped. Poor people in these countries risk their lives to scratch out a living collecting mineral specimens for our collections. Is there way these folks might get a few more crumbs for their effort? When I read about specimen miners in Peru or Bolivia chewing coca leaf to kill their hunger while they work, I feel guilty whether I but their specimens or not. Do we need to depend on their poverty to enrich our collections? Sorry if I got off on another rant. Sometimes I just can't help myself.

10th Feb 2014 07:53 UTCDale Foster Manager

Nelse Miller Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

Poor people in these countries risk their lives to scratch out a living collecting mineral specimens for our collections.

Is there way these folks might get a few more crumbs for their effort?



To be honest the only way I could envisage is for you to go to the mines and buy direct from them.


As soon as you involve a chain of middle men, the cost increases with each link in the chain wanting to maximise their bite of the cherry.

10th Feb 2014 20:57 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Maybe we need fair trade minerals like they have with fair trade coffee? However from what I have heard going to the sites where they are found will not get you cheap minerals, those people now have access to the internet and know what they are worth. The dangerous shortcuts these people take are more due to local competition for the minerals then anything. Even if you paid more for the minerals they would still take the same dangerous shortcuts. The other thing to remember is that the quantities we are talking about would in most cases simply never pay for expensive modern safe mining methods. It is the shortcuts and cheap labor that makes it worth while and this is dictated locally and has nothing to do with you or I.

11th Feb 2014 16:53 UTCSteve Cantiello

Hummm... I have a good question which might shed some light on a certain point here.What is the value of a specimen?

I collect,as in hardrock mine Herkimer Diamonds here in New York state.I can sell a 1/2" water clear crystal for say 10.00 here to local collectors.If I sold the same crystal in Tucson it may fetch 30.00!Has the real value of the crystal changed or just the price?Price that is paid does not reflect the value.

If someone buys a mineral for 2 dollars and then sells it for 20 dollars does the amount paid change the value of the mineral?

The value of something changes when you look at things in different ways.The 5000 dollar mineral that the millionaire bought with disposable cash may be the same mineral that feed a family for a month or two of a local miner in say Afghanistan.The local miner may have gotten paid 40 dollars for the that mineral,and I do believe that 40 dollars meant a lot more to him then the 5000 meant to the millionaire!

The value of something is dependent on the individuals worth of that something.If I pay 10 dollars for a cup of coffee that is expensive to me,while some others may give a 10 dollar tip for the same coffee.

Price does not always reflect the value.

11th Feb 2014 17:57 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Value and price often correlate but not always. There is also a difference between the price asked and the price received since like everything minerals are only worth what someone is willing to pay. However the bottom line is what your the cost of production is. If it is too high compared to other sources then you will not be able to sell what you find at a profit. Furthermore, since there is no standard catalogue of mineral prices, prices range widely.

11th Feb 2014 19:24 UTCEugene & Sharon Cisneros Expert

As Reiner says, value and price may not always correlate. Technically however, once a sale has been made, the fair market value for the item/commodity has been established.


So, Steve, if your Herkimer sold in Tucson for $30, then that is the fair market value. Here is one definition of fair market value.


In the realm of United States tax law, the definition of "fair market value" is found in the United States Supreme Court decision in the Cartwright case:


The fair market value is the price at which the property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts. United States v. Cartwright, 411 U. S. 546, 93 S. Ct. 1713, 1716-17, 36 L. Ed. 2d 528, 73-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) 12,926 (1973) (quoting from U.S. Treasury regulations relating to Federal estate taxes, at 26 C.F.R. sec. 20.2031-1(b)).


When we do IRS auditable appraisals, this is the definition that we use. Once a specimen is purchased, it sets the basis for the appraisal value. That is, the fair market value usually cannot be less than that, but it may have appreciated for reasons such as inflation, rarity, etc. Whether the specimen is worth that to someone else not relevant. The next time the specimen is sold, the fair market value may change.


Gene

11th Feb 2014 20:46 UTCMichael Hatskel

I am not sure how many of the specimen purchases, even in the high-end segment, meet the fair market value criteria quoted by Gene. Collecting is not exactly business, although for investment-grade specimens is comes very close. Too close, I would say.


It is well known that buys are most often based on the likes, i.e. people tend to buy irrationally. Some people can afford to irrationally spend $20, while others have no $$$ limit at all.


Obviously there is always a "willing buyer."

"No compulsion" test: Is marketing on the seller's part included? Plus, irrational buys are always compulsive.

"Reasonable knowledge of relevant facts" test: That must be the most questionable element. What else is relevant if I like the piece?


Same applies to the other specimen market segments. Would people be buying milky quartz being sold under some crazy marketing name for that kind of money, if they had (or wanted to have) the reasonable knowledge of any facts?

12th Feb 2014 01:57 UTCEugene & Sharon Cisneros Expert

Michael,


I understand your thinking and can't say that I disagree. Sometimes, when doing appraisals, I am shocked at the price that has been paid for a particular specimen. I certainly wouldn't have paid the price... even if I had that kind of money. However, I have to use that price as a basis for the appraisal unless I can show, for example, that it is not in line with market comparables. Using this methodology, actual cost for the basis has never resulted in a challenge by the IRS or by insurance companies. Keep in mind that these appraisals are usually done for people that have advanced collections and are knowledgeable about quality and prices, or in many cases museums or institutions. I believe that the key words in the definition of fair market value are "neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts", inferring that the person is not under duress or irresistible impulse to act and knows something about what they are buying.


As far as business goes, I would say that any salable commodity, including collectibles, that provides sellers with reasonable profit has to be called business by definition. In fact, in our early years in business (45 years ago), we were audited and challenged by the IRS as not qualifying as a business entity, but operating a blind with which to further our own collecting hobby. It turned out to be a flimsy case, particularly because I couldn't afford to buy, for my own collection, what I was selling and we were making a profit.


As far as milky quartz is concerned, there will always be "snake oil" for sale and willing takers.


Gene

12th Feb 2014 06:27 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Gene cited the U.S. Treasury: "The fair market value is the price at which the property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts. United States v. Cartwright, 411 U. S. 546, 93 S. Ct. 1713, 1716-17, 36 L. Ed. 2d 528, 73-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) 12,926 (1973) (quoting from U.S. Treasury regulations relating to Federal estate taxes, at 26 C.F.R. sec. 20.2031-1(b))."


The part I put in bold print ("both (seller and buyer) having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts") is the fly in the ointment, the clause that makes it difficult or impossible to establish a "fair market value" in the legal sense for a mineral specimen. "Relevant facts" would include knowledge of the number of similar specimens available, and the number likely to be found in the near future, and the number held back in dealer stock and not displayed. Often neither buyer nor seller have that information. One also might find it relevant to know how much other people are paying for similar specimens - the amount actually paid, not just the dollar number on the label, and that too is not a number often made public. The mineral market is not like the real estate market, where such information is publicly available. So I would claim that there is no way to determine a "fair market value" for specimens. It's just guesswork.

12th Feb 2014 11:25 UTCKnut Eldjarn 🌟 Manager

Interesting discussion - and theoretically correct based the definitions used. But as stated byAlfredo, the precondition for the establishment of a "market value" for anything is that there has to be a reasonable shared knowledge between buyer and seller concerning the relevant facts. There also has to be a certain market size for the term market value to make any sense. It is probably also valid only for specimens with a lasting value to other collectors. There is another issue overlooked in the discussion concerning specimens bought at low prices - i.e 10-20 $. Is the purchaser really buying a commodity/specimen or is it for enjoyment and learning - or as a souvenir ? In the latter cases the value may be retained with the buyer - even if the specimen is discarded as worthless in itself. Look at all the insignificant objects that are trashed from any estate because the objects themselves have little value to anyone else than the original purchaser. I think this explains why tons and tons of cheap specimens of shiny and colourful minerals are sold at shows and markets and never turn up for sale again. The cost and value of the specimen itself is no more than a ticket to a cinema or show. The ticket has a true market value only for the person that can enjoy the show. Afterwards it is just a piece of worthless paper. The vaste number of mineral collectors are not investors but people who enjoy minerals, mineralogy and also self-collecting. It is not the potential future market value of the specimens that dictate their purchases and collecting activities. This should be taken into consideration when prices and value of mineral specimens are discussed.


Knut

12th Feb 2014 12:52 UTCSpencer I Mather

Myself I couldn't give a damn about the 1%, as long as I am satisfied with the specimens that I have either collected myself, or bought, as long as they are what I am looking for, and with over 45 years of collecting minerals I am completely satisfied with my collection, and what I will find next..


Spencer.

12th Feb 2014 14:58 UTCSteve Cantiello

I remember when the "Spirit Quartz" or " Cactus Quartz" first showed up on the market here in the USA.What a hit that was with collectors.Since only a few of the dealers had the connections to the African crystals they were able to sell them for a good price.A few years later the market was flooded with those crystals and the price drop quit a bit.

For some of us who collect the value is set by ourselves,just as Knut put it." In the latter cases the value may be retained with the buyer "

Being an avid field collector my personally collected pieces have far greater value then any mineral I have ever purchased.Enjoying the hobby is what we all share.

Hopefully this "enjoying the hobby" is something we can all agree with.


Steve

12th Feb 2014 18:28 UTCEugene & Sharon Cisneros Expert

Alfredo,


I agree that the fair market value for mineral specimens is just a guess, but to be accepted by the IRS and insurance companies, it must pass the test of due diligence. Due diligence meaning that there is expertise on the part of the appraiser and that he/she has used comparibles, and other available information to determine said specimens value. While another person/collector may not accept that valuation, the IRS and insurance companies do, in most cases. Keep in mind that fair market value is not a constant and can change with time. In the case of Milpillas Azurite, there is a good chance that fair market value will vary wildly over the next few years. On the other hand, consider a native Silver specimen from Kongsburg that was collected in the 1700s. It's likely that it would continue to appreciate over time. In some cases, a specific Legrandite comes to mind, fair market value has dropped drastically. So, let's just say that fair market value is a metric that is not constant, but reflects our best estimate of value at any particular moment in time.


I think that there is some confusion regarding fair market value (FMV) and intrinsic value. Fair market value differs from the intrinsic value that an individual may place on the same asset based on their own preferences and circumstances.


Gene

12th Feb 2014 20:20 UTCJim Robison

Just as well jump into the discussion here. I have ended up, after many years, collecting essentially only two specific types of mineral specimens. Both are Tsumeb, one is smithsonite and the other is dolomite, especially casts. I'm certainly no expert, and so far from the 1% that I wouldn't know where that is, although I do know a few very knowledgeable collectors in that category.


"Knowledgeable" is a variable term. Over the years I have looked at literally tens of thousands of Tsumeb smithies, and hundreds of dolomite casts. So I have a knowledgeable understanding of the market variability CURRENTLY existing, or existing at the time the silver pick was used. Of course the dealers often know undisclosed facts, such as how much they paid for a piece. Do I often pass up on very fine rocks or pieces at a low cost. Certainly do when they don't pass the 'smell test' for me in terms of price and my willingness to spend the money or because it simply doesn't appeal. Will someone else pick up the piece at the apparent higher price. Often so, but what is not publicly known is how much of a discount the dealer applied. So what it finally comes down to is whether I want a rock at a stated price, and sometimes what I pay is not "market value" in the strictest sense, but some discount or premium based on what I want from the rock in terms of aesthetic value, mineralogical interest, or just because I like it for the fit into my collection. Do I expect to eventually sell my rocks for more than what I paid. In some cases yes, but if I get my money back I'm a very happy camper. to use a US term, and some rocks will never return their cost but I got them, just as others above have, because I get some satisfaction or knowledge from having and studying the piece.

14th May 2021 13:02 UTCA. M.

Anyone with a lot of money could buy any rock they want. So what? Good for them! Why I should disparage the buyers because I am not nearly wealthy as they are? "1%" bashing smells like specific system instituted in some countries on this planet I would not live in again.

It is NOT "an investment", just a pleasurable hobby, whether you gather the rocks for your studies, systematic collection of minerals, nice large crystals, natural art, bragging rights, or "eh, just because".

As for price - high or low? If you search - you will find. Remember, every beast - even the ugliest, neglected, dirty and under piles of dust - will find its enthusiast.
 
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