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Generalmessage board elitism

5th May 2010 11:37 UTCmalcolm chapman

I can think of little more to demonstrate elitism than to close a thread after two days without giving a chance to react. I know there must be rules and there are many reasons why that would be right, swearing and abuse being examples. But to ban a thread because it would stir up a reaction or controversy is surely wrong.

After 30 years in the hobby I still regard myself as the pupil rather than the teacher. The subject is so large that there are many aspects where my knowledge is weak. I am happy to learn from others but on almost every thread there is someone indicating that you are not doing it right. This may be the quality of the photograph or missing information such as hardness etc etc. These seldom are helpful and are mostly critical and would come from those with so much more to offer but they fail to do so.

I feel right to react to their words in a polite if sarcastic way and do not think my thread should be censored. I have not been censored in the past but the reaction to the other string indicates one moderator can choose.

Another aspect of my character is that I like to wind people up especially if they are full of their own importance. Their reaction is usually informative and often shows a better side of their character. This should not be censored.

OK the site is about rocks and minerals which seems so placid but it is also academic and all discussion should be accepted.

5th May 2010 12:41 UTCChris Stefano Expert

This has nothing to do with rocks and minerals- the comments that were made were attacks against members of this forum meant to stir people up. There is no advantage to that. I fully agree with the choice to close that thread and I hope this is closed as well. It has nothing to do with elitism- it is simply not the purpose of these message boards to discuss people's personalities or weather they are elitist or not.

5th May 2010 12:42 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

The formation of rocks and minerals is hardly placid (see Iceland) and some scientific meetings aren't when popular theories are attacked. But mindat is about minerals and closely related subjects and when things stray from that, they are much more likely to be shut down. Is mindat elitist? Sure, but it wants to be an inclusionary elitist, not exclusionary, most users want to share their knowledge on the subject. The forums provide a very good opportunity to do this, but mineralogy is a science that can be defined by experimentally proven theories and observations. To make the site useful, there has to be some editorial control.

5th May 2010 12:55 UTCGeorge Eric Stanley Curtis

Malcolm,

I regard myself as a beginner, certainly not a member of the 'Elite', but I have to say that I greatly value the opinions of the Elite. Without them, mindat would be a poorer place, and probably would not exist.

The 'Elite' have helped me so many times I have lost count, and they never ask for payment or a reward. I have never had cause to complain.

When you say "... on almost every thread there is someone indicating that you are not doing it right. This may be the quality of the photograph or missing information such as hardness etc etc. " I can only comment that if such things were said to ME, I would take notice, and I would be sure to try my hardest to correct myself the next time.

'Elitism' is in the mind of the beholder -

And while I am on the subject, my special thanks go to Uwe from Austria, who has helped me many times for no reward.

Best regards

Eric ;)

5th May 2010 12:57 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Without moderation we would lose a lot of people who currently read and contribute to the forums, who do not want to have to put up with reading small-minded, ignorant and offensive posts. People won't stay and contribute to a community if they feel they may receive replies to their posts of this nature.

I make no apologies for closing threads and removing messages of these kinds, and will continue to do so.

Jolyon

5th May 2010 14:08 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert

Malcolm,

Since you seem to be interested in this topic and have been a member here for three years,surely you must have seen this thread?

http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,59,153274,page=1

5th May 2010 14:15 UTCFrank de Wit Manager

Dear people,

Please think for a few days about what Malcolm is writing... think... not respond to it... don't delete his posting here ; perhaps later to clean the forum up, but not immediately...

I talk to a lot of people in the mineral world, and, very often, people tell me, that they are afraid to post questions or remarks on the Mindat forum, because they are afraid to be electronically shot by moderators... People are sometimes -afraid- to post here. Does that message hit you?

I'm not afraid, I like criticism, I can handle it, for sure when it's positive criticism, helping criticism ; and I can ignore negative people very well too. And I love Mindat... Without Mindat my daily struggle for information would be a fight instead of a pleasure. But...

But I often see replies here in topics, yes, moderated replies, that make the hairs in my neck stand up.

Usually I would have replied the same, or I would have deleted the topic also, if I were a moderator. But it's the way things are moderated or said that makes the hairs in my neck stand up. It's not always the message (sometimes it is), but it's the way it is said... And the way things are said brings up the thought "elitism". I understand those feelings... I don't always agree with those feelings, not always relate to them, but I do understand them. And that's the game here: ask yourself the questions first: "is it me"? "What can I, perhaps, do better?". Answering those questions should take a day at least. Thinking things over takes time... Take that time ; give room for discussion. Room for discussion is room for improvement and cooperation.

I thank all the admins and moderators for their super work. Keep up the good work, keep Mindat alive ; I help whereever I can.

Cheers, Frank

5th May 2010 14:28 UTCAnonymous User

Frank, there is always room for discussion. I don't understand why people are afraid. There is a difference between a troll like RSTaylor/Jade Holly (see the closed thread for what I mean) and someone with serious, well thought out criticism, or honest questions.

Trolls should never be tolerated, because they feed on being able to stay and 'poke' at people. This is why I closed the thread, because discussions never end with trolls, they always have another excuse or argument and it's a waste of time.

5th May 2010 14:46 UTCFrank de Wit Manager

Exactly Philippe ; why should people be afraid to post here? What are they afraid of? Good question...

Imagine this visually (I don't say this is you, this is just an example):

We are standing in front of eachother, the two of us

And a lot of people are watching us ; they are listening

They hear every word

There is a good meter between us

You have your arms crossed in front of you, closed, arrogant tone in your voice

You are looking at me with an angry look in your eyes like "say the wrong word and I will delete what you say/write if I don't like it"

Yes, there is room for discussion

But... is there really room for discussion?

Does one perhaps feel newby and the other one feels he is peer? smarter?

Is there fear of a "elitist reaction" ; perhaps fear for arrogance?

Is there fear to look stupid and be punished for it?

When one person thinks that 'there is every room for discussion' ; the other person might still be afraid to speak up...

Why? The discussion climate?

Cheers, Frank

Beware: I'm only asking the questions here: sort of coaching... don't kill me as a messenger please ;)

5th May 2010 14:50 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

I'm always happy to discuss changes to the way we moderate the site - there are clearly people just out to cause trouble and they need to be dealt with. There are many cases however of people who are simply saying what may be a good point in perhaps not the best way. Should we be more tolerant of this? Possibly.

I don't think we should treat any question as "stupid", and I do hope we give equal time and attention to the beginner asking their first question that we do to the experts. I do hope that people have some common sense before posting - anyone should be able to realise that a blurry photo isn't going to help with an identification request (less still a request for valuation).

I certainly don't see any need to close this thread, it's an important discussion and Malcom was right to raise his concerns.

But none of us (not even me) have a free pass to post whatever we wish. Malcolm by his own admission posted messages that were designed to provoke a reaction from the original poster. Whether it was deserved or not there is a potential for conflict here. Now, I'll be the first to say I post exactly the same type of messages from time to time. Sometimes perhaps the messages I post should be moderated too.

We have volunteer messageboard managers here who read comments and have to make a judgement about whether the message or the thread has a purpose or is beneficial to the site. If it's yet another argument about crystal healing (which we have done a thousand times) and there is no new point to the discussion, and the moderator feels it is not going to go anywhere productive, I can understand their wish to close the thread and, in some cases, delete threads or messages.

By giving these managers the ability to manage the threads I also have to respect their judgements. Sometimes mistakes will be made and messages removed that other managers may have kept. But to keep things running we have to accept the occasional mistake is the price to pay for smooth running of the messageboard.

Jolyon

5th May 2010 14:59 UTCAnonymous User

From what I gather of your comments, fear of posting would be based on a misconception by taking interactions out of context. Slip ups by regular users are tolerated (I have done a few slip-ups myself), and though they often spark debate, moderation is usually only used in the more serious cases. There are several examples of good contributors to the forum and to the photo galleries who got very angry and did things they regretted, more than once. These were tolerated within a reasonable limit (which was quite relaxed IMO).

Compare this with someone whose first half-dozen and only posts consist of thinly veiled personal attacks and insult-woven criticism. These are not tolerated since it's obvious the person has no interest but to cause trouble.

I am surprised people would not only hesitate but avoid posting on messageboards for fear of moderation. My view would be, why not try it out and see. It's not like getting a message deleted will negatively impact your life in any way, what could be the consequences! I think this is more a case of moderatophobia - irrational fear of moderation ;)

5th May 2010 15:04 UTCmalcolm chapman

I have little dispute with what has been said as many of the comments reflect my thoughts. I deviate from the general thought as I have been offended by some reactions to my non provacative posts. They are regular and usually from those who seem to be setting themselves up as leaders as to what one should or should not post and how one should or should not handle the hobby. I react to this, hopefully keeping within the bounds set by Jolyon.

To Chris I would say that there are many things outside the minerals themselves that are worthy of discussion. For example, when collecting I do not carry a hammer of any sort, nor do I enter mines, yet I have a decent collection. Others may wish to discuss and it could get personal.

I agree with you David that most people are helpful and I learn from them with grateful thanks. but those comments I react to are not in this category. It is not helpful to tell someone to go and get a good reference book, especially someone who has a 30 year collection, If you find a good book and pass on details that is different.

George, I would go further than you. I think the elite are the bedrock of mindat. They are an essential part of the site. By elitism I refer to those who use their position and knowledge to impose rather than to inform or persued.

Jolyon, your the boss, I agree with you, but I did think the thread in question did have some bones and was worthy of discussion and I did not see any offence in discussing the subject. That opportunity was summarily withdrawn. And there is a call for this thread to be withdrawn. Life could be boring without a little addition of personality as illustrated by the reaction to this thread.

When I started this there appeared to be a bad reaction to my opening gambit. Now I see a few more reactions I feel a bit better. Frank has approached the subject from a different angle and has encapsulated my thoughts - well done.

5th May 2010 15:08 UTCJesse Fisher Expert

This forum was created and is being run by Jolyon and company. It is their forum, just like any newspaper, magazine, or journal belongs to the publisher. Unlike print publications, however, the internet is interactive, allowing direct participation by the "peanut gallery." This is what makes it a "social" medium. Given the tendency of many humans to speak before fully engaging their brains, if ground-rules for behavior are not set, then things can quickly get nasty. One of the things I truly dislike about many internet forums is that the anonymity provided by posting under pseudonyms and such seems allow some people to feel that they can behave in a fashion that would never be tolerated in face-to-face discussions. I've given up participating in numerous discussion forums where the moderators seem happy to allow this sort of thing, and I fully support Jolyon and Co. in their desire to keep the trolls and flamers off Mindat.

As for "elitism," anyone who knows more about or has more experience with a particular subject than someone else could be considered to be among an "elite" group. This is the nature of human interaction. I think however, that a lot of people confuse elitism with snobbery. The latter involves another (and somewhat unfortunate) aspect of human interaction, where some folks seem to have the need to look down on others whom they deem lacking in something, whether knowledge, experience, or possessions. There is nothing wrong with elitism. If we are truly interested in something such as mineral collecting and mineralogy, then I think we all aspire to join it's elite by becoming educated on the subject. It's just unfortunate when some of feel the need to engage in snobbery toward others who may know less about the subject than we do.

5th May 2010 15:11 UTCFrank de Wit Manager

I like your response Jolyon ; very balanced

I like the moderatophobia too!

Let's keep moderatophobia in our minds for the coming week ; what causes moderatophobia? Should Mindat act on that? If yes, how?

I think Jolyon's post is a very good basis for a sort of "policy" to communicate more widely and to guard in future moderation actions...

Cheers, I'm off for more underground mineral collecting now and happy to turn off the internet connection, Frank

5th May 2010 15:17 UTCAnonymous User

Malcolm, there is no offense in discussing the subject (as seen by this thread - and there is not a call to have it withdrawn contrary to your comment) and it is a valid discussion, however it is not valid from Jade Holly/RSTaylor's perspective. Had you seen all of her original messages, I think your position would not be the same.There's a common saying on the web, Do Not Feed The Trolls!

Frank, I'll keep it in mind, thanks.

5th May 2010 15:35 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

There are posts that are obviously innocent requests for information, and helpful responses to such requests, and legitimate discussion on mineral-related topics, even controversial ones. And there are the obviously inappropriate ones: flames, personal insults, commercial advertizing, religious and political propaganda, trolling, etc. But between these obvious extremes there is a wide grey area. Moderators (of which I'm one) are human, and have different personalities. We moderators have no trouble agreeing on the obviously beneficial posts and the obviously unacceptable ones, but we may differ about how to handle each specific "grey" case, and we might each even change our own mind depending on our mood that day, which is only human.

What I can say is that if someone posts something in the dubiously "grey" area, their post is more likely to remain on the site if it is phrased politely and if it comes from a person using their real name; less likely to remain if it isn't polite and comes from someone using an obvious pseudonym. (We are talking probabilities here, not certainties.) Unlike a lot of other internet sites, we are trying to maintain a civil level of discourse here.

5th May 2010 16:05 UTCJohn Duck

Malcolm,

I don't usually chime in on these types of discussions, because it just isn't productive. This isn't a public forum protected by free speech, and yes no moderation would be chaos. However, if I posted a question here and instead of an answer I was told to "go read a book" and by that summarily dismissed, I would be angry too. You have posted here often enough and thoughtfully enough that you should be treated with a little respect or at least courtesy. After all isn't that what everyone wants?

5th May 2010 16:20 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Can I also add to Malcolm, and to everyone else reading, that if we have deleted messages and you feel we acted inappropriately in removing them then I give you my apologies. 90% of the deleted messages are deleted before I get a chance to see them - so I can't comment on individual cases (unless I was the one doing the deleting) - but I'm sure that some messages are deleted because of a misunderstanding or misreading of what was said.

In cases where we delete one message we often have to delete comments made to it, even reasonable comments, because they would otherwise be completely out of context. In this case I've even had to delete my own comments before. Don't forget, that posters here can (and do) go back and re-edit their original message after comments have been added. Sometimes it's the re-edited version (that you may never have seen) which was deleted.

As moderators, perhaps we should be more active in using our powers to edit messages (to remove offensive words etc) rather than just deleting them. We don't do that very much at the moment, but we have the power to do this, and maybe that will make things run a little smoother.

Jolyon

5th May 2010 16:47 UTCmalcolm chapman

Phillippe

Chris did suggest closing this thread down contrary to what you said.

Jade Holly and RSTaylor (I do not know if they are the same person or not) have a few notes that I have been able to find. Not particularly offensive as far as I can see. So is there a history that leads you to quote your trolls statement repeatedly?

My knowledge of trolls relates to scandinavian creatures and incidentally I had a particularly memorable and inexplicable ghostly experience with one. The other subject in those I found was the good luck and healing properties of crystals. I sold hundreds for these purposes when I had a shop so they certainly brought me good luck and probably aided my health.

I believe and disbelieve many things but should they get an airing?

Incidentally I do not think any reaction a problem as I can always handle it, but I can understand people being put off. Someone redefined the problem as snobbery. Perhaps that is a better word.

5th May 2010 17:23 UTCAnonymous User

Maybe you should read this and this and learn about internet trolls.

5th May 2010 18:43 UTCmalcolm chapman

Philippe

I had seeked out these items already and had read them. I am sorry, I can see a little rudeness about mindat, I also see rudeness about someones unusual name . I do not see anything too wrong with the thoughts even though I may or may not agree with them.

I did not get an answer on whether these are the same people. Is there a history I am not aware of? There are clues to indicate a previous confrontation especially when other posts are referred to. It smacks of someone who is upset being quite restrained. Your extracts would therefore be out of context without at least reference to what instigated them.

I am not taking sides or offering criticism but trying to understand a subject brought up by yourself.I do not see your explanation of trolling being appropriate without more information.

5th May 2010 19:11 UTCAnonymous User

Both pseudonyms have the same IP. In context or not, personal attacks are never acceptable. Furthermore, all of this person's posts (except for one) that I found contained some type of insult or personal attack.

5th May 2010 23:29 UTCRon (RS) Taylor

Hi Folks... My name is Ron (RS) Taylor AKA Jade Holly and I am the offending troll Phillippe so colorfully refers to in his post and this is my real name. If I've overtly ruffled or inflamed any mindat feathers with my comments, I apologize. I've been a mindat fan for many years and refer to the vast and informative database quite often and it has greatly enriched my general knowledge of minerals. Before recently I have never posted anything on the message boards nor had much interest in them at all as most of it seems rather technical and dry. I was drawn in by a post on the fakes and frauds message board that I was alerted to entitled Elmwood Calcite posted by Dana Slaughter which directly affects and concerns me personally which I won't go into here but as far as I'm concerned the question remains un-resolved. While subsequently browsing through various message board postings I noticed a trend toward mean spirited, inflammatory and adverse comments regarding certain buying and selling groups and certain large mineral websites that are constantly beat up and hyped about without question and without any challenges or opposing viewpoints. I somehow got the notion that any viewpoints not shared by the popular majority are quickly attacked, brushed off and ridiculed as nonsense and it kind of reminded me of a pack of sharks in a feeding frenzy over a bucket of chum. So regretfully I made a few sarcastic opposing comments and used an alias so I wouldn't feel all alone and I must admit I'm all the sorrier for it. As far as making fun of anybody well maybe I was out of line but I consider his motives ego driven and dubious at best. I am very suspicious of anybody who is a self appointed policeman/critic/accuser/inquisitor with a website to grind on and find it a bit incredulous. Anyway, it seems to me that personal attacks, insults, innuendos and trolling are perfectly acceptable on midat as long as they are in line with the narrow message board philosophy. That being said this will be my last post on this elite forum so Phillipe you won't have to worry about KBG tracking of my IP address any longer and all you other guys don't need to send messages to get me in line with your reasoning. A final thought: It's a big world with lots of crystals, rocks and minerals and lots of different people who sell and collect them for many different reasons, isn't there room for everybody, can't we all just get along.

Good Luck & Best Regards - Ron Taylor

6th May 2010 12:03 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Ron,

Your message explains very clearly the attitude we were objecting to. We encourage friendly, open and honest debate. Yours was none of the above. I don't think it needs any further comment.

Jolyon

6th May 2010 12:57 UTCmalcolm chapman

Jolyon,

Thank you for the action you have taken. It was interesting to read RSTaylors contribution and would have been a pity if it had not been aired. It rather seems there was a reaction to a thread that brought some unwise comments. This confirmed my view that there was previous incitement. I have received comments addressed to me that could have brought the same sort of reaction but I chose my words more carefully.

I have seen comments that go much further, some of which disappeared in due course. Most have been in reply to the unhelpful comments from people who should know better because they are moderators or highly regarded participants.

Perhaps, as you say, these comments should be censored rather then removed. a ??&%$ instead of a bad word or sentence may leave the right impression. I have nothing against controversy as a lot can be learned as long as it is not only a slanging match.

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