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Pararobertsite : Ca2Mn3+3(PO4)3O2·3H2O, Whitlockite : Ca9Mg(PO4)6(PO3OH)

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Copyright © 2012, JGW
 
 
 
 
 
minID: P8V-RKV

Pararobertsite : Ca2Mn3+3(PO4)3O2·3H2O, Whitlockite : Ca9Mg(PO4)6(PO3OH)

Copyright © 2012, JGW  - This image is copyrighted. Unauthorized reproduction prohibited.
Field of View: 0.14 cm
Largest Crystal Size: 0.04 cm

Sharp deep-red translucent pararobertsite? or robertsite? crystals on transparent very lightly colored whitlockite crystals.
Formerly in the Lou Perloff and Julie Weber collection, via Excalibur Mineral Company, most likely originally provided by Bill Roberts; the label (see daughter image) indicates 'robertsite with whitlockite'. Pararobertsite was described as a new mineral after Roberts passing.

S418-163 N4484N

This photo has been shown 491 times
Photo added:11th Jan 2012
Dimensions:1024x768px (0.79 megapixels)

Data Identifiers

Mindat Photo ID:437051 📋 (quote this with any query about this photo)
Long-form Identifier:mindat:1:4:437051:9 📋
GUID:cf1fa0ef-d50d-47d8-80d9-ca83ce6445e2 📋
Specimen MinIDP8V-RKV (note: this is not unique to this photo, it is unique to the specimen)

Other Views - click to switch

Discuss this Photo

Photosdoubtful pararobertsite

23rd Jan 2024 22:19 UTCJason B. Smith Expert

These photos, and the pararobertsite gallery have bugged me for a long time. There may be pararobertsite somewhere on this sample, but these crystals don't match the description, nor known samples. Crystals should be diamond-shaped, and are commonly associated with robersite in several different habits. These look like robertsite crystals to me but XRD should be done to verify. If they are pararobertsite then they are unique for the mineral. The description of pararobertsite can be seen here: https://rruff.info/uploads/CM27_451.pdf

This example surely isn't pararobertsite: https://www.mindat.org/photo-201978.html

This example is from verified material and is analyzed: https://www.mindat.org/photo-1159228.html

The others in the gallery look legit, at least as far as I can tell from the photos. 

24th Jan 2024 01:02 UTCJeff Weissman Expert

09426010017061362402524.jpg
Jason - if not pararobertsite, than what? Above is another view of one of the crystals on this specimen. Does not match the published description for robertsite, http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM59/AM59_48.pdf nor any other robertsite I have seen, although there could be other morphologies I have not seen. Granted robertsite and pararobertsite are very similar in appearance (hence the name, pararobertsite = 'near robertsite")

This crystal resembles portions of Figure 1 in the pararobertsite type description you reference, but being thicker than in other photographed and illustrated examples and more compact in habit rather than as splayed plates.

This particular specimen was provided by Bill Roberts (the name sake of robertsite) to well known micromount collectors Lou Perloff and Julius Weber; a label on the mount, written by Perloff, indicates that the original identification of robertsite was uncertain, as pararobertsite had not been characterized at the time the specimen was mounted. I obtained this specimen from Tony Nikischer at Excalibur Mineral, who is very well acquainted with the individuals involved and the history of this and similar micromount specimens.

TL/DR: thought not to be robertsite by Roberts, Perloff and Weber despite appearing very similar to some robertsite from Tip Top; later ID'd as pararobertsite by Excalibur Mineral.

Additional information: I ventured into the cat-infested basement and retrieved the specimen for another look. There are a few crystals more like the form in your link (1159228) and there are some rounded clusters that are typical of robertsite. So, I stand by the identification of pararobertsite.

24th Jan 2024 03:27 UTCJason B. Smith Expert

Hi Jeff. I am not fully convinced your sample isn't pararobertsite, only doubting it based on the morphology of the crystals. They are unusual, for either species, but look a bit more pseudohexagonal like the usual robertsite to my eyes. I searched for a legitimate pararobertsite for years and purchased several apparent examples that all turned out to be robertsite representing several different habits, including tabular crystals. If your sample did prove to be pararobertsite by analysis, it would clearly be one of the best, if not THE best of the species. Maybe Tom Loomis has seen better.... Might be worth pursuing in that case to close the books on it, but to me it's not definitive based off the appearance of the crystals (which is obviously only a subjective speculation). 

I uploaded another example I have which also shows the diamond-shaped form, but seems to have somewhat rounded corners. https://www.mindat.org/photo-1348234.html

The other sample I linked to in this thread is most certainly not pararobertsite and should be removed from the head page for the mineral. That is a very typical pseudohexagonal barrel of robertsite. (201978)

24th Jan 2024 06:39 UTCThomas Loomis 🌟 Expert

Hey guys
The two minerals have always bothered me too. There just isn't many examples out there. I have one from Tony N which was tested and also has a WLR label. I'll have mine retested. I have also seen plenty of little dark red, discoidal robertsite on whitlockite thought to be pararobertsite. 

24th Jan 2024 13:52 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

but look a bit more pseudohexagonal like the usual robertsite to my eyes.
 Agree.

24th Jan 2024 22:43 UTCJeff Weissman Expert

There maybe three different habits of brown material on this specimen, I will gets images over the next several days; in the mean time, will modify picture caption to reflect the identification uncertainty.

27th Jan 2024 08:25 UTCJason B. Smith Expert

Can we at least agree that this https://www.mindat.org/photo-201978.html is identical to https://www.mindat.org/photo-16981.html and have 201978 taken off the pararobertsite main page? 

27th Jan 2024 18:01 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Can we at least agree that this https://www.mindat.org/photo-201978.html is identical to https://www.mindat.org/photo-16981.html and have 201978 taken off the pararobertsite main page? 
 Done.
 
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