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Improving Mindat.orgNigrite?

9th Apr 2024 16:30 UTCEddy Vervloet Manager

I do not have a Dana, so can somebody check this nigrite please?
Can this be deleted?
A variety of what??

9th Apr 2024 16:40 UTCRichard Gibson 🌟

ASPHALTITE: Also asphaltum. Includes solid bituminous hydrocarbons known as albertite, impsonite, gilsonite, grahamite, nigrite and uintaite. U=0.001 percent. Mineralog. Mag., v. 15, p. 417, 1910.

 Citation from USGS Bulletin 1009-F, 

GLOSSARY OF URANIUM- AND THORIUM-BEARING MINERALS THIRD EDITION By JUDITH WEISS FRONDEL and MICHAEL FLEISCHER

 

9th Apr 2024 16:40 UTCHerwig Pelckmans

An organic compound.
C.A. Peterson (1899) 20th Annual Report of the USGS, pt 6, p. 257.
A pitchy body of the asphaltite group from Utah, USA.
(source: HEY'S 3rd, p. 496)

9th Apr 2024 16:42 UTCHerwig Pelckmans

Eddy Vervloet Manager  ✉️

I do not have a Dana
 We all have different editions of Dana at our disposal.

9th Apr 2024 16:53 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

I now made it a variety of Asphaltite. Currently it is the only variety of Asphaltite, but I suppose some others, like albertite, gilsonite, and uintaite, should also be made into varieties of asphaltite?

Currently, Uintaite is listed on Mindat as an independent "rock subtype"; Albertite is listed as both a variety of petroleum and a variety of bitumen; and Gilsonite is listed as a synonym of Uintaite.

9th Apr 2024 17:50 UTCTony Nikischer 🌟 Manager

Can't we just call them varieties of general "hydrocarbon" ?

9th Apr 2024 17:53 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

"Hydrocarbon" is a bad term here. To many chemists this term implies the material consists only of carbon and hydrogen with no other elements present. Example: methane (CH4) is a hydrocarbon but  methanethiol (CH3SH) is not. It is my understanding that these 'natural hydrocarbons" often include easily detectable levels of nitrogen, sulfur and sometimes other elements as well.

9th Apr 2024 20:29 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Hydrocarbon also has a different meaning to economic geologists (including even gases), and there are some crystallised hydrocarbons that are approved mineral species (fichtelite, hokkaidoite, and several others), and then as Steve points out, some of the mineralogists' bitumen components are not true hydrocarbons in the chemists' sense, so too many different meanings - Best avoid the term.

9th Apr 2024 19:53 UTCErik Vercammen Expert

I've read "nigrite" as being a black variety of rutile.

9th Apr 2024 21:01 UTCEddy Vervloet Manager

That wouldbe nigriNe, Erik.

9th Apr 2024 21:41 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

This area is a bit of a mess. We have asphaltite listed as a bitumen-rich rock. Bitumen is described as a liquid to solid variety of petroleum, with various varieties depending on the amount of water and volatiles. Petroleum is described as “Naturally occurring oil found in rocks ("rock oil"), comprising mostly hydrocarbons, plus other organic compounds containing N, O, S, etc. “  This probably needs revising.

9th Apr 2024 23:34 UTCLalith Aditya Senthil Kumar

Also slightly off topic, but I feel that mindat should have a page on crude oil and liquid hydrocarbons, as it currently directs you to the page for Petroleum.

11th Apr 2024 18:42 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

I revised the description of petroleum to note it can be solid, liquid or gas.

12th Apr 2024 00:29 UTCLalith Aditya Senthil Kumar

Thank you.

12th Apr 2024 07:38 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

I revised the description of petroleum to note it can be solid, liquid or gas.
Disagree. Petroleum literally means 'rock oil' and the Wikipedia page states that it is liquid:

12th Apr 2024 14:19 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

I agree with Uwe that petroleum must be liquid, by definition. Otherwise we're just using the word petroleum as a synonym of any natural "hydrocarbon" (in the economic geology sense).

12th Apr 2024 16:08 UTCJeff Weissman Expert

Liquid is a vague term. There are some type of petroleum that are so viscous that they flow extremely slowly, see pitch drop experiment - Univ. of Queensland. Add a little thermal energy and most forms of petroleum, and common plastics, will flow quite readily. In nature there is a continuum from light oil through heavy oil, both referred to as petroleum, to pitch then to some types of bitumen and coal. I can get some coal to behave as liquid if need be.

A better definition of petroleum will include both a density range and a viscosity range.

12th Apr 2024 21:58 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

No, it commonly is thought of as mainly liquid by the public but broadly includes solid and gas in the mining industry. My reference came from Encyclopedia Britannica, Wikipedia needs updating.

13th Apr 2024 18:36 UTCJeff Weissman Expert

Ralph - having worked in both the upstream and downstream petroleum industries, petrochemical industry, and now the energy industry, over decades, I have never seen any papers, reports, talks, or other sources referring to hydrocarbon containing gases as petroleum. Granted, the petroleum industry, writ large, includes both gas and liquid recovery, processing, conversion, purification, upgrading, transportation, marketing and sales, as petroleum and gas are almost always found together. However, natural gas, shale gas, biogas, coal gas, anthropogenic gas, or hydrocarbon gas found in alkaline rocks and pegmatites, is gas, not petroleum. There are places that produce 'wet gas', or 'saturated gas', with associated commercial operations involved with  separating and recovering liquids from the produced wet gas (called NGL's, natural gas liquids, i.e. hydrocarbons that at normal pressure and temperature, are liquids), but gas and petroleum are by and large recovered, handled and processed differently, being recovered as separate streams at the wellhead.

A simple suggestion is that if the hydrocarbon is a gas at room temperature and pressure, then its a gas - this includes methane, ethane and propane. It the hydrocarbon is a liquid, even an extremely viscous liquid such as natural pitch, bitumen or tar, than it can be lumped into the 'petroleum' catch-all category - any hydrocarbon containing 4 or more carbon atoms, in general. Propane straddles that line, as it is commonly sold as a mildly compressed liquid. Hydrocarbon being, of course, molecules containing only hydrogen and carbon.

By the way, here is the definition of petroleum from Wikipedia, which sometimes is a reliable source if used with caution, "Petroleum, also known as crude oil or simply oil, is a naturally occurring yellowish-black liquid mixture of mainly hydrocarbons, and is found in geological formations. The name petroleum covers both naturally occurring unprocessed crude oil and petroleum products that consist of refined crude oil." I don't have access to the Encyclopedia Britannica in order to make a qualified comparison of definitions. 

We should stick with broad definitions and lump all of these old carbon-rich material names into several headings such as petroleum or coal, as we are not concerned with gases here in MinDat. And lets not even get started with peat, char, or other naturally occurring energy sources.

14th Apr 2024 13:30 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Thanks Jeff for your thoughts.
The Britannica reference is: https://www.britannica.com/science/petroleum
The Primary Contributor was: 
  • Priscilla G. McLeroy
    Professor and Director of the Undergraduate Program in Petroleum Engineering, Texas A&M University, College Station.
 I figured a Texan professor of Petroleum engineering seemed pretty authoritative. I should add the full reference to the page.
In addition I have worked with petroleum geologists before, who seemed to work with natural gas as much as oils.
I did also note the term can be used in a broad sense, or just for the liquid, crude oil. 
I take your point that these are mixtures, and oil can have volatile, gaseous components.
Actually, though I am not a petroleum geologist I was the first person to identify natural petroleum in situ in Tasmania. The material was oily when fresh, but devolatised over a year or so to relatively solid bitumen. It was verified chemically as being natural.

I am no expert on natural gas but I understand that it can contain a lot of non-hydrocarbon compounds, so just calling it a hydrocarbon is not very accurate either. We do list natural gas in Mindat, though it’s classed as “a mixture of two or more mineral species”, like petroleum. We really need another classification for materials that cannot easily be lumped as rocks, chemical compounds or minerals.

Perhaps surprisingly, we do list a number of gases in Mindat, including hydrogen, helium and methane, but not oxygen, nitrogen, water vapour etc. (outside the Elements database). 

14th Apr 2024 18:23 UTCJeff Weissman Expert

Ralph - I find that a lot of petroleum geologists and those working  in adjacent areas are somewhat loosy-goosy with various field terms, including gas, petroleum, oil, etc., as we all know what we are referring to, but this can get confusing to outsiders. I'm not a petroleum geologist either, just a benefactor of their work!

14th Apr 2024 22:02 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Yes we can get into similar arguments on what is a clay, basalt, granite etc,  it depends whether we are lumpers or splitters.
 
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