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Fakes & Frauds"Crab Fire Agate" - another rip-off?

9th Sep 2006 15:13 UTCAlan Plante

It looks like we can add "crab fire agate" to the list of over-hyped materials that use a term with a specific meaning that doesn't suit them in order to sell them. Based on the photo posted in one of the above Forums, the stuff doesn't have any fire and should not have the word "fire" in its name...

Alan

10th Sep 2006 03:29 UTCBrian Corll

Not exactly a ripoff, because it's not a fake agate, but it's not a fire agate. It's spiderweb carnelian.

10th Sep 2006 04:12 UTCAlan Plante

If they're charging "fire agate" prices for the stuff (which seems to be the case...) then it is a rip-off. Just as it would be a rip-off to charge precious opal prices for common opal.

10th Sep 2006 06:45 UTCMess O'Potamia

Pardon me all... somehow I missed receiving a copy of the proclamation which made Mr Plante the world arbiter of gemstone prices. Does anyone have a link where I might find it on-line? And will DeBeers be switching over to the new Mindat price guidelines, bringing gem grade diamonds down to the more realistic and honest value of $29.95 a carat for a sparkly bit of mere carbon?

10th Sep 2006 15:59 UTCAlan Plante

It doesn't take a graduate degree in gemology to know that the adjective "fire" when used to describe either opal or agate refers to a specific optical charateristic. If the term is used for opal or agate materials which do not have that characteristic, and the purpose of its use to jack up the price, then it's fraud. That's just common sense.

The marketing folks may want to blur the definition of what constitutes "fire" in these materials in order to jack up prices for non-fire materials - but they won't fully succeed so long as people who know what "fire" really is keep speaking up.

I choose to keep speaking up...

Alan

10th Sep 2006 16:43 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

I'm not sure I know much about the use of the term 'fire' in agate - it has a specific usage when connected to Opal, but I had always regarded the word 'fire' in agate terms simply to mean red.

Still, these names are chosen to deceive/oversell the material involved - and has been going on for centuries. How many "Jade" names are there for non-jade material? When a name is used for enough time, it becomes a seemingly accepted part of the trade dictionary.

Whilst I'm not a fan on the creation of such new names, it will continue to happen, and we will still continue to add them and describe them on mindat.

I'm somewhat in agreement with Daniel that we shouldn't try to become too high-and-mighty about this. Downright fraud (such as the Azeztulite stuff) is one thing, but new names for Agate such as this aren't necessarily fradulent - it is probably that the vendor has a different idea of the word "fire" in their mind than you do.

But - I do agree that it is vital we are free to stand up here and shout out concerns about such names. Even if I don't agree that this particular name is one that we should be singling out as a "fraud", I totally agree with your reasoning behind posting this for discussion here.

Jolyon

10th Sep 2006 17:40 UTCPaul L. Boyer

I would not say that "fire agate" is a fraud. However, I consider the entire title of this section. It specifically covers MARKETING PLOYS. In this case, while you may argue what is meant by fire, calling it fire agate is a marketing ploy, not necessarily fraud. If you specifically say that "fire agate" has fire like opal, then you have gone into fraud.

10th Sep 2006 17:59 UTCDon Saathoff Expert

True "fire agate" found here in New Mexico has a true "fire"....that is, an opalescent play of flashing colors. It is generally darker in overall hue than precious (fire) opal but can be just as "fiery" as opal if cabbed correctly. I, personally, would reserve the term "fire" for just such material and call all other colored quartz by it's correct name...in this case, red chalcedony. But, then, I'm not trying to sell it, am I?!

10th Sep 2006 18:22 UTCPaul L. Boyer

You are correct. I had forgotten about the true "fire agate". Perhaps you are correct in saying fire should refer to the play of colore, and color should use different adjectives. Perhaps "fiery" would work, but I suspect that wouldn't fly well.

10th Sep 2006 23:14 UTCPaul Stemen

Hi all, I am the one that posted the pic of the crab fire agate. I wanted to know what this stuff was. and to let people be aware of the marketing ploy some are using to sell this stuff. I knew it was not true fire agate. I have many pounds of Slaughter Mountain Fire Agate and cut/grind this myself.

The so-called "Crab Fire Agate" is merely an overstated marketing ploy someone

came up with to sell this material. I find it very miss-leading, but people are buying the stuff. Thank you Brian for properly identifying this agate.

11th Sep 2006 03:17 UTCAlan Plante

Hi Jolyon

As Don and Paul S. indicate, the use of "fire" in describing a specific optical characteristic is (has always been up until now...?) the same as is meant regarding "fire opal."

Calling something "fire agate" when it does not have the "fire" may be a small potatoes variety of fraud, but it is still fradulent. If not, then just maybe I'll start packaging ground up graphite and call it "diamond dust" - ought to be a hot seller (and bring a real good price) on eBay. - After all, it's all carbon, isn't it? Nothing fraudulent, right?

:~}

Alan

11th Sep 2006 03:31 UTCAlan Plante

Thank you, Don. - I'm glad to see I'm not the only person here who knows what "fire" means when applied to agate.

I wonder - generally, not specifically to this case - if it's a generational thing? Perhaps us older duffers were more rigorously schooled on the use of descriptive terms - on how they were coined with specific meanings in mind - while the younger gang has come along since the marketing contingent began making inroads into that rigor, co-opting the buzz words that give higher value, etc..., so they are used to things being a bit on the loosey-goosey side and don't see a problem with it. But to me, 2+2 will always equal 4 in base 10 - no matter how often sloppy adders try to tell me it equals 3 or 5, that's close enough.

And if someone tries to sell me "fire agate" at fire agate prices, but the stuff doesn't have any fire in it, well... - my wallet is staying in my pocket. "Mother Plante never bore such a foolish son." to borrow a phrase. :~}

Cheers!

Alan

11th Sep 2006 05:29 UTCDon Saathoff Expert

Alan...I go back to my original quote "There's a sucker born every minute"...that's been true since man began trading anything for anything!!!

12th Sep 2006 10:54 UTCPaul Stemen

Does anyone know where this alleged crab fire agate came from and who or what organization/corporation made up this name? I really just noticed this stuff to hit the market within the last year or so.

Paul

23rd Sep 2006 06:15 UTCBrian Corll

I purchased a few pieces of "crab fire agate". I'm beginning to think this is not a stone at all. I got a message from a stonecutter who had been cutting something similar, but he called it "spiderweb carnelian". Looking closely at the stones, I believe they are a ceramic product with an unusual and clever glaze. When a hole has been cut in a stone, for instance, the inside of the hole is a light cream color, like a porcelain clay, and shows no color or "snakeskin","spiderweb" formation like the surface. Sometimes at the very edges of a stone you see the same thing. I think we have a complete fake on our hands here.

23rd Sep 2006 14:59 UTCAlan Plante

Hi Brian

A don't think a hole drilled in an agate or artificial substitute can tell you which you have. The interior of a drilled hole has "powdered" walls from the drilling process, and that can mask the true color of the material - even "the real stuff" would probably look different from the lapped surface. Also, you wouldn't see any pattern to speak of in the hole.

The only way you could tell if what you have is not a natural agate would be to sacrifice a piece - break it in half and have a look at the full cross section. If it's surface-dyed or glazed then the interior will look different, even wet or lapped. The color only being skin deep, so to speak. Although if it is an oriented pattern, keep in mind that a view of it in cross section may not show the same thing you see looking at the surface - even if it's a real agate. You'll be looking at the "edge" of the pattern. So you have to make a mental geometric adjustment for that.

The material I've seen for sale on eBay does look like a natural chalcedony with a natural pattern in it - I've seen certifiably "natural" material which looks pretty much like it. My only caveat about it - other than it not being a "fire" material - is that it does not look like an agate, it looks like a pattered carnelian. I would buy the "spiderweb carnelian" ID that at least a couple of the posters here have suggested it really is. But the agate vs. carnelian issue is a minor one - it doesn't really effect the value of the material significantly - and it is an easy mistake to make, as many people do not know the difference between them, even collectors and lapidaries. It seems any chalcedony that has even the slightest hint of some sort of pattern to it - a bit of "character" - ends up being called an "agate," even when it isn't. No big deal. The main issue is that true fire agate sells for at least ten times as much as non-fire materials because of its rarity and beauty. So when someone calls non-fire material "fire agate" and prices it as if it were the practice has risen to the level of being fraudulent...

Regards

Alan

29th Sep 2006 04:25 UTCBrian Corll

Alan,

The more I look at this stuff and the more I read about it, the more confused I get !

29th Sep 2006 04:42 UTCAlan Plante

I suspect that you are not alone...

But the main point is whether or not the material is a true fire agate - and the general consensus here is that it is not. It simply does not exhibit the play of colors that is known as "fire" in agates and opals. And a material which does not have "fire" simply should not be described in any way that might mislead people into believing it does. (There are, alas, a lot of people who don't really know the difference - but who do know, or have some sense of, the fact that there is a difference in value; and they will blithely open their wallets and allow themselves to be skinned without even knowing it's happening to them.)

It also worth considering the source of any info you get: Is it from people with no monetary interest in the stuff, or someone who has such an interest? I know who I would tend to believe after listening to both and hearing disagreement between them; and here, at Mindat, you are reading what the latter has to say...

"Git edicated, son!" my daddy always used to say. "Larn it - or it'll bite you in the butt!" Good advice! :~}

Alan

29th Sep 2006 05:16 UTCDon Saathoff Expert

"I cain't know for ya, boy...Ya gotta know for yourself!!"....MY father, F. E, Saathoff!!!

18th Oct 2006 08:41 UTCAnonymous User

wow,that really is a question to identify them.

What is this stuff of my collections ?

Fire Agate or Carnelian ?

But i think the answer is not important in viewing,if only you like it.that is enough.

for example:i like call the following item "Fire Agate".

5cm*4cm*3.5cm

Alasan Desert,Inner Mongolia,China

18th Oct 2006 18:31 UTCAlan Plante

That's not "fire agate" - not even "agate," I think. It looks like plain old chalcedony - or maybe even plain old common opal, a different mineral entirely...

It is NOT a good idea to call things whatever it pleases you to call them. It leads to confusion. Think about it: If I decide to call the tree out in my back yard a "maple" and do so - then find out from someone who knows trees well that it is actually an oak, wouldn't I be a fool to continue to call it a "maple" when it isn't one? I mean, I might convince ten other people it's a maple, just because I say so and they don't know any better; and then when those ten people tell ten other people... We end up with a lot of people calling them "maples," and a lot of them calling them "oaks." Confusion! :~}

Please find out what you actually have and call it that. I'm too old to handle more confusion. :~}

Cheers!

Alan

19th Oct 2006 19:27 UTCAnonymous User

now, i am thinking of why you think that "Fire Agate" must be ripoff.only for higher price! then,according to your logic,if that seller would like to sell it at lower price than real Fire Agate,is the seller honest?

there would be many possibilities to bring on this result.

you are right,we should keep a serious and scientific attitude in collecting.

but there is different accustomed ways to name so diverse agate in different location,even in different language.

another reason is lack of knowalege in agate.

in China,we usually call agate/chalcedony/opal in a word "Agate",though we know their difference.

"Fire" just is a lively color in order to describe it.

so i am not sure that must be a fraud.i prefer to think some suspicion on it if that is at higher price.

26th Oct 2006 20:13 UTCShain

you know, Im a bit on the young side(30), and true Fire agate is what got me into the lapidary trade over 10 years ago. All to often I see many people selling "fire agate" simply because they were told it was. And the confusion often lies in what they are selling, may not be in essence, "True" fire agate, but rather plain old Chalcedony sard. Which as a collector of fire agate, is the first indicator one looks for to find the "True" stuff. Also having seen the Crab fire agate, I agree whole heartily that its a simply ploy of either a uncreative vendor, or production house. I was also reading on Ganoksins that it may in fact be a heated agate, or crackle glass(porcelain). But I donâ€™t know either way. I do know that Fire agate should be reserved for the real deal. Even the low grade fire agate I myself sometimes get caught up in wanting to call it fire agate, only because it has a flash, though a very low grade brown flash. Its still not the true gem stuff in my eyes.

27th Nov 2006 02:58 UTCSUSAN VAUGHAN

well, i wouldn't be so upset if my "crab fire agate" was a real stone, instead of what looks to be white glass covered with some kind of painted effect which in one section has rubbed off or disintegrated showing a translucent white bead underneath.

I don't see how that can be any kind of true stone.

I'm a total novice -- didn't know what fire agate was, and didn't really care -- but what was pictured looked pretty and was described as natural stone, crab fire agate.

Now that I know what fire agate looks like and costs, the price of this item was not high, BUT it WAS high for 15 white translucent glass beads -- very high.

27th Nov 2006 03:02 UTCSUSAN VAUGHAN

here's the photo of what I supposedly purchased

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=010&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=200036004011&rd=1&rd=1

23rd Feb 2007 04:42 UTCAnonymous User

Well, I am sorry I can only attach one photo. This stone, I have only ever seen called "crab fire agate." Well, I have seen it called just fire agate, but since I know there is another stone that is accepted as "fire agate" I assume ignorance for the writer, rather than deception.

If anyone knows what else this stone is called, or an official name for it, I would love to hear it. It is NOT ceramic, it is stone. I have a couple of broken beads, and they are not glass or ceramic or glazed in any way. From what I understand, this stone is from Mexico, and is heat treated to get the bright orange color. That is the extent of the information I have found.

The last thing I want to do is mislead anyone who looks at or buys my jewelry or beads, but I can only pass along the information I am given, and research its veracity to the best of my abilities. If someone can tell me, hey, that's "blah blah" stone from "blah blah" and offer me proof, I would be happy to alter my descriptions.

I am not an expert on stone, and I am constantly confused by the difference between agate, jasper and chalcedony. But I know what I like, and I am willing to do a little legwork to obtain satisfaction and increase my limited knowledge.

Cindy Aguiar

23rd Feb 2007 04:43 UTCAnonymous User

Here is a picture of the broken side of the bead in my first post...

23rd Feb 2007 16:59 UTCAlan Plante

It looks like agate I've seen from a hundred different places - nothing terribly distinguishing about it. I would call it just plain "agate."

The penchant of people who market agate products to try to come up with distinctive names to set their particular product apart from others, and therefore boost sales, is marketing - not mineralogy. Not ever slight variation merits a different name. Most agate is just plain agate... - Quite frankly, I don't see anything wrong with that: Agate is a pretty material! :~}

Regards

Alan

23rd Feb 2007 19:00 UTCDaniel Russell

Dear Beadbaby:

The material you have is most probably an agate. I hedge only because I do not have the material in front of me and have not tested it.

So, lets start way out in left field:

In the gem trade, "fire opal" refers to an orange-red opal from Mexico (and other spots) of an orange-red color, sometimes showing the same play of color present in precious opal. Allow me to quote from a UCal Berkley website:

"Precious Opal

Precious opal, which displays 'opalescence' (spectral color, irridescence that changes with the angle at which the gem is viewed). White opal is an opaque stone in which the colors appear as flashes or speckles. Black opal contains fire with a dark body color. These are less common and tend to be costly.

"Fire Opal

Fire opal is transparent or translucent with an orange or red body color. Fire opals are named for their color (but are not opalescent). The term is often misinterpreted to indicate that fire opal is opalescent because in precious opal, (with a play of color) the play itself is called fire."

< http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~eps2/wisc/Lect16b.html >
< See also: http://www.gemstone.org/gem-by-gem/english/fire.html >

Precious opal has "fire"; "fire opal" doesn't necessarily have "fire".

Because the agate you have is orange-red in color - pretty similar to "fire opal" in color but less transparent - someone has decided (by extension) to call it "fire agate".

To add confusion, some agate shows "fire" sort of not-quite-similar to precious opal and has been called "fire agate" by lapidaries. {the only way you could confuse the play of colors in precious opal and this type of "fire agate" is if your seeing eye dog was on vacation}

Mineralogically, it should be called "Quartz, variety cryptocrystalline". Gemologically, its "agate". Put bluntly, "agate" isn't important enough to the gem world to be accorded much debate over fussy small points of what its been named. The gem trade is being drowned by a tsunami of fakes and frauds amoung major gemstones (diamond, ruby, sapphire, emerald etc) to worry about creating an Agate Gestapo to enforce an already-slovenly system of "accepted agate nomenclature".

But I question the intelligence of calling it "crab" from a marketing standpoint. Its not an especially enticing appellation.

1st Mar 2007 19:01 UTChannah j

i first bought a few pendants of this material, from the mineral dealers kameyab imports (http://www.kibeads.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=5). at the time they didn't have a name for it - some kind of agate. in retrospect, it is hard for me to imagine they didn't know that it is not natural. it was not expensive, and went with my carnelian and chalcedony beads, so i used it in necklaces, just calling it agate. i didn't see much the next tucson, and bought some more from kameyab in denver last year. this year in tucson it was EVERYWHERE. one bead dealer who i have bought from for ten years, who tells me what's natural and what isn't, had some beads this year and she and her husband both said that it is heated up till it spiderwebs (thus the 'fire' appellation.) whether or not that is the whole story, it is not natural, and i will buy no more, and tell customers, who are not as particular as i am, what i know. a friend broke a bead open and he said it didn't even look colored inside. i also saw lots of dyed material sold as sugilite, from longtime dealers. there are so many frauds out there, oh, and how about the purple turquoise, a frank dyejob, sold in the same booths of turquoise miners. no shame.

12th Dec 2008 01:00 UTCSand Walker

This reminds me of the commercial about Chiffon margarine (way back when). The song went: "If you think its butter but it's not, it's Chiffon!"

Then the dairy industry, not to be out done came back with a commercial of it's own, " We'll never claim to taste like margarine . . "

One thing is for sure, purveyors and miners of fire agate will NEVER try to pass their rocks off as crab fire agate!

Consider it a compliment :)

1st Jul 2010 17:22 UTCgypsyjane

There seems to be some confusion here. I was told, long ago that crab fire agate is an agate that they FIRE, yes with heat. So the word fire in the name doesn't have anything to do with appearance, it's from the process. Then they also quench it in water after they remove it from the heat. That is what causes the crackled surface. They do this with agate and also with carnelian. Sometimes they are dyed and sometimes not, just the same as other stones. You just have to find a well educated and reputable dealer. But they do bleach them I think to get the white on the outside of the beads. They make the beads and cabochons first and then treat them so that all the sides of the piece are covered with the crackle. this is also the reason that the spiderweb crackle doesn't go through the entire bead or stone. The name 'crab fire agate ' is a trade name that was made up and probably just to confuse and mislead the buyer, as sometimes happens. It is actually a fired agate. Hope that helps.

5th Jul 2010 03:34 UTCJamey Swisher

There are also some that either started out as a glass type material(totally fake) or ended up with too high of heat and started to melt the material which then converted the chalcedony into a now silica type glass, again, making it a fake/synthetic/glass/simulant however you choose to call it. Great care must be taken to make sure you which of the MANY types of this material you are actually selling!! Is it just the heat and quench cracked and bleached material? The totally fake that started as glass? Or the stuff that was over heated and caused to turn into a silica glass?

Even with the true/real stuff, it is important that all treatments are disclosed as required by the FTC Guidelines. So high heat, crackle quench I guess would be a way to call it, and then either dyed or bleached, or as with some, both.

You just can not sell it as "Crab Fire Agate" or "Natural Crab Fire Agate" like 99% of all folks selling it are doing.

30th Sep 2010 19:50 UTCAriel S Wall

It could also be "crack rock agate" as that is the favorite agate of those who also pay a lot of moey for crack rock. Some say that to see the true value of Crack rock agate" you must first be a crack rock enthusiast.

Ariel

6th Dec 2010 22:22 UTCIbrahim Jameel Expert

Ariel Duplant Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>....as that is the favorite agate of those who also pay a lot of moey for crack rock.

So then this is the crack addict's favorite agate? :D

24th Feb 2011 16:05 UTCKristi Hugs

"an opalescent play of flashing colors. It is generally darker in overall hue than precious (fire) opal but can be just as "fiery" as opal if cabbed correctly."

Yes, this is what I was taught also and I am a youngster in this field compared to some of you :)

10th Apr 2011 18:52 UTCdeussala

hi , im speak french and some french sellers call it flames agates not fire agate i think it much appropriate to this kind of pattern in carnelian and its avoid to make mistake.the people who call that fire agate try only to sell them for a lot of money and i sure they know what their doing and in this kind of case its a scam .what we need is a complete list of all sellers on ebay we do thing like that.sellers will think about it twice before doing things like that.this list must be easy to update and says thing like they are to let people make their own ideas about the seller and a lot of publicity than everyone who buy minerals know than this kind of list exist and than is important to take a look at this official list before to buy some minerals on ebay

16th Nov 2013 07:17 UTChpeso

I5 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> now, i am thinking of why you think that "Fire

> Agate" must be ripoff.only for higher price!

> then,according to your logic,if that seller would

> like to sell it at lower price than real Fire

> Agate,is the seller honest?

>

> there would be many possibilities to bring on this

> result.

>

> you are right,we should keep a serious and

> scientific attitude in collecting.

>

> but there is different accustomed ways to name so

> diverse agate in different location,even in

> different language.

>

> another reason is lack of knowalege in agate.

>

> in China,we usually call agate/chalcedony/opal in

> a word "Agate",though we know their difference.

>

> "Fire" just is a lively color in order to describe

> it.

>

> so i am not sure that must be a fraud.i prefer to

> think some suspicion on it if that is at higher

> price.

Allen is correct!!! and why would you even attempt to chime in knowing zip! nothing ! , nada!. That crap that faux and as they guy said not even agate. I have cut fire agate for 45 years , and that crab fire agate ?? a fraud and the reason they named it fireagate is because many people do not know what fireagate is and it has a top ranking on the internet.

9th Jul 2014 00:00 UTCJanie

Last week I bid on and won some silver chains, relatively thin chains: 1.2mm and 2mm and 22 & 24 inches long. They were advertized as "Promotion, 925 sterling solid silver jewelry chains" (and then the sizes). I belong to the Jacksonville Gem & Mineral Society and make settings out of 925 silver 16 gauge wire & sheet, for the stones I cab. Our price is roughly $27 oz. I started wondering, so I e-mailed a few of the sellers in China & was told that these chains (and pendants, earrings, bracelets etc) are all stamped 925 BECAUSE they are silver-plated with 925 silver plating. Now I wonder if the silver jewelry sold in Walmart & other outlets for Chinese-made goods and sold as 925 sterling is actually silver-plated. I thought if silver was stamped 925, it was a guarantee in the USA that it was solid silver, not silver-plate.

9th Jul 2014 00:22 UTCDavid Garske

Just type in crab fire agate in google-Several people who sell it state that it's heat treated, and a couple say some of it is glass, and most of them distinguish it from "fire agate".

Dave

9th Jul 2014 03:34 UTCDoug Daniels

Don't know how or why a a silver-plating question made it to this thread, but you cannot get a 925 (i.e. 925parts out of 1000) silver plate - it's either 100 % silver, or it's not silver. The 925 denotes an alloy, and you can't plate out an alloy (the electrochemistry won't allow it).

9th Jul 2014 14:39 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

Actually you can get alloys, although it isn't necessarily easy.

https://www.electrochem.org/dl/ma/200/pdfs/0661.pdf

http://www.google.com/patents/US7938948

10th Jul 2014 11:33 UTCOwen Melfyn Lewis

The bull point is that no one plates with 925/1000 silver.

What confuses some people is that bails *are* sometimes solid sterling silver and stamped 925 or whatever local law requires. This leads so some thinking that assay grade applies to the whole chain. It doesn't. It applies only to the part stamped.

Under English law (one of the oldest and strictest in the protection of standards of precious metal purity in goods offered for sale, silver chains are one item of manufacture that are exempted from having the individual links in a chain all stamped with the assay mark (though some really heavy chains do). This adds to the confusion as some chains with 925 (etc.) stamped on the bail only are completely of silver (or gold etc) and others are dreck except for the bail :-)

if in doubt and not able to assay a link for oneself, use commonsense and check the SG of the chain as a whole (being careful to eliminate all bubbles of air).

27th Nov 2014 06:30 UTCRohde Rubble

I am researching a vintage native american squash blossom necklace with 19 fire agates; researching the maker's hallmark / provenance / history etc is what i call intriguing, since it is obscure, and what i would expect of genuine handcrafted jewelry.

On the other hand, trying to grade the stones themselves, is what i call infuriating, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. Saw a lot of crap out there, a few good sites with decent info. I just wanted to find out if what i have is worth getting appraised, but now i am starting to think finding someone who can appraise these in person will be impossible since it's such a niche market in the precious gemstone trade.

FWIW i did manage to narrow down the locality of the source to Aguascalientes, thanks Mindat! And might as well show some images of real fire agates cabbed and mounted since there was none on the thread. Photos taken in full sun, polished surface / reflections / dust obsures its real beauty, you get the idea though :)

28th Nov 2014 11:13 UTCRock Currier Expert

Two to five hundred dollars? This is for mineral specimens not jewelry to take any estimates given here with a grain of salt.

28th Nov 2014 12:47 UTCOwen Melfyn Lewis

The fire agates look pretty good though in need of re-polishing perhaps. The silver looks like the high-copper content silver alloy found in cheap Indian metalwork throughout parts of Central America. Fairer to describe it as 'white metal' rather then silver. I bought my fill some 40 years ago in the Indian market inside the earthquake-ruined cathedral in Antigua, Guatemala.

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