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Fakes & FraudsBanning fraudulent sellers

3rd Jun 2014 14:52 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

I have a friend in Germany who has told me that in Europe when a dealer sells material that turns out to be either fraudulent or not what is represented they are banned from selling at the shows in the future. It seems that with all the fraudulent and misrepresented material I see at shows in the US, it might me time to implement this policy in this country. I see so many threads on mindat with this theme. I could name numbers of frauds in the past when nothing was done to the people selling the stuff. Maybe it is time to get serious about stopping the fraudulent selling of products.

Rolf

3rd Jun 2014 15:23 UTCChester S. Lemanski, Jr.

Rolf,

I agree with your opinion; however, the legal system in this country probably would make such a move impossible from the legal liability aspect (libel). We had a particular character who was suspected of such activity. Whenever confronted, the party would have an excuse and almost instantly threaten to sue for libel. To enforce such a rule, you would have to be prepared to prove in a court of law (perponderence of the evidence = better than 50% chance) that the root cause is factual - not an easy task! You are best served by simply not patronizing such dealers.

Chet

3rd Jun 2014 15:38 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

What was told to you, Rolf, about Europe might perhaps be true for some small club show somewhere, but is certainly not true for the big internetional shows, where all sorts of spurious and misrepresented crud can be seen on sale. In that respect I notice no difference between european and american shows. :-(

3rd Jun 2014 16:03 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

Libel laws are in place to protect the innocent vendors from any unscrupulous competitors. Given the "dog eat dog" business culture here in the U.S., I could easily see vendors trying to undermining each other with such false claims, were issues of libel not in place. Unfortunately no system is perfect, and there are ways to "work the system" as well.

We had a pair of Middle eastern dealers on the mindat Faccebook page having at each other, both claiming the other was a crook. Either they both got banned or dropped out of their own accord. At least this system keeps the rancor down to a simmer, but it is sad that only "those in the know" will hear tell about the vendors who are best to be avoided.

MRH

3rd Jun 2014 20:52 UTCBob Harman

Philosophically, I completely agree that dealers selling any type of phony or misrepresented material should be censured or even banned from the shows, but as other posters on this and other Mindat threads have noted, it is easier said than done. There are many dealers at the bigger shows, both in the USA and also in Europe etc, with all types of phony material. For example, much of the Moroccan fossil material clearly is far from authentic.

Then there are many, many types of cleverly altered, repaired and otherwise "doctored and enhanced" mineral examples that would have to be individually evaluated in order to pass muster. Clearly not practical. As with many collectibles, an educated collecting consumer is important and even then buyer beware. CHEERS…..BOB

18th Jun 2014 10:17 UTCRock Currier Expert

You think its dog eat dog here? Its pretty tame compared to other places in the world.

22nd Aug 2014 01:28 UTCHoward Heitner

For small club shows, and perhaps larger ones, the show chair or an officer should ask the vendor to remove a "mislabeled item" Never make any accusation or mention of "fraud" If the vendor refuses or does it repeatedly, do not renew their contract. Specify that they must send a check for the next year. When the check is received, tear it up and throw it away and give the space to someone else. If they ask why, tell them that no check was received. Thus there is no accusation of "fraud" and no grounds for a libel suit. This procedure was recommended by a lawyer in the Bronx.

22nd Aug 2014 02:02 UTCRudy Bolona Expert

Dog eat dog! Tear up the check and throw it away. Fraud is a beast with many heads. ;-)

22nd Aug 2014 02:29 UTCA. M.

At a recent show here in New Jersey I picked up a specimen of New York hexagonite that was identified as the correct species - but attributed to Wood's Chrome Mine. The seller insisted he found it at Wood's. I explained that these come only from NY and if he did find it at Wood's someone most certainly brought it there. The seller appeared much surprised and told me this is exactly what my partner told him just minutes before, when he visited his table.

Later on I found out much more about this seller....... I will be sure to stay out of his way.

22nd Aug 2014 03:00 UTCHoward Heitner

I know that people eat dog meat in some cultures. I have never tried it myself.

OK, If you do not like that one, "lose " the letter with the check and say that it was received and "lost". Find it after the space was given to someone else. I lose things at times and find them weeks later.

Put in a safe place like your pocket. Forget to take it out before your clothing is washed. I have made this mistake many times.

Where I come from, the unethical person has no right to complain about other peoples behavior.

Alternative justification: Self defense, if someone is poised to commit fraud, defraud him first, so that he can not commit fraud.

22nd Aug 2014 05:08 UTCAlex Earl 🌟 Expert

I like the "forget the check" idea, I think it would certainly work but be careful, some people are not nice when they get angry (I would be angry if a check was lost as long as my spot" however I am not a dealer at mineral shows, I am 17 so the most. Can do is when I go to mineral shows and see a misleading or even fraudulently labeled item I will just tell people to avoid the dealer, or if a dealer has something mislabeled accidentally, and does not look like they will be offended I will kindly tell them to relabel it to the correct name. The it is being kind, or at least not getting angry and then yell at them, this can really escalate the situation. Even if they get angry and start yelling, let them rant and don't yell back, they will look bad and people tend to avoid those dealers.

As for legal situations when a dealer is being purposely fraudulent, ( inuding those who have been told what they are selling is mislabeled and will not change it) one way is to record the whole thing, (if laws allow) and see if you can't record you asking them to relabel it and them then refusing.

Alex

22nd Aug 2014 15:04 UTCMatthew Goodwin

There are a lot of interesting comments here, but how do you conclusively separate fraud from ignorance (whether convenient or not)?

For example, my knowledge of localities and minerals tends to be focused on certain areas, which is the case for many collectors. Nevertheless I continue to notice fundamentally wrong location information on the www, from both low and very high end dealers regarding certain types of specimens from a certain locality. Similar issues arise with photographs on Mindat, hence even a source of reference information can be compromised. In turn this raises the question of how many other errors exist which I, and others, are not aware of??

Bob's comment that "an educated collecting consumer is important and even then buyer beware" has a particular resonance with me given such observations.

Matthew

22nd Aug 2014 16:53 UTCA. M.

Some sellers make unintentional mistakes, some do it on purpose. We had a discussion here a while ago on C.K. Williams atacamite.

In general, the seller's attitude when an error is pointed out indicates who is who. I choose not to do business with those I suspect of being intentional, even when I know what the proper identification is and if I like the specimen. It helps them perpetuate it. I just smile and move along.

If I happen to goof I hope someone cares enough to let me know. I have posted photos to mindat in accordance with the label that a specimen came from - for example that "Canadian" ruby from India - that label was in error, the mindat community helped me find its proper origin.

The seller I had an encounter with has a long history of troublemaking, I wish I knew before I came to his table. I have shared his name in my personal contacts with others, but I don't know if that would be permitted on a public forum.

22nd Aug 2014 17:02 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Most dealers love minerals and are happy to learn about their specimens. Rarely there's a screw up and even more rarely is there intentional fraud. So when it does happen it gets noticed. It's such a small community that fraudsters can't survive. So lighten up folks:)-D

22nd Aug 2014 21:39 UTCDave Owen

And this doesn't even open the new age angle. So prove that Azeztulite is just junk quartz or that it won't help you communicate with e.t.s or what ever. Now that I think about it last time I was at one of those booths I did see some pretty spaced out characters so ???

23rd Aug 2014 15:35 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

I was reading the comments with interest and have an incident to add from Tucson. A fellow stopped in when we had a store and opened a box of 4 specimens he had just purchased at a rock shop in Tucson. He was beaming and asked me what I thought. I picked up the first piece and told him it was a very nice Adamite from Ojuela. He lost his smile and told me to look at the label. It said "Legrandite". I told him it was not what the label said. Then I looked at the other pieces. One was in fact Legrandite but the other three were Adamite.

He left not as happy as when he had come in. A few days later he came back and told me he had taken the pieces back to the store and the owner had gotten angry and told him the labels were accurate and told the fellow to go away. He had his tail tucked between his legs when he was back at our place. I got out the microscope and the Mineral Encyclopedia and set it up on the counter. I told him to read both mineral descriptions and photos and decide for himself. It was quite for several minutes and then he exclaimed "well, I'll be damned" and realized he had been taken. Unfortunately he never did stop in again. I hate to burst peoples bubbles but have a hard time when the mistake is obvious. Sad thing is that the store owner who sold the material was not able to listen to reason.

There are many more of these stories floating around in my head but this one was so blatant it irritated me.

23rd Aug 2014 17:59 UTCJohn M Stolz Expert

People are people; some are good and some aren't. And there's no reason to think the distribution is biased just because we take a sample among our beloved hobby.

I have 2 anecdotes to share:

I bought an LED light bar from a dealer. Not more than a couple of months went by before 20% of the lights burned out. It wasn't convenient to approach the guy for a refund because he was a ways from me, but within 6 months of the purchase, I did take it to a local show where he was set up. His attitude was, it was my problem/fault/whatever. We were talking $100 so I didn't make a big deal of it, but I obviously have nothing good to say about this guy. And a while later I was able to find the materials online and just make them myself--much cheaper--and to my custom needs.

OK, next story is about how I finally got a car mechanic I could trust. The guy was great--always explained what was or wasn't needed, and was very personable. He was a young guy with a wife and baby, and he ran a good operation. Then, about 10 years later, he moved to another location and didn't seem to be in charge any more. Repairs were becoming expensive, and for the first time I started taking the car back for rework. Long and short is I caught him in a lie and quit going to him. But in this case, I knew the guy well enough to know that he was getting squeezed by a crappy roll of the dice--business was circling the drain and he had a family to take care of. I'm not saying that's an excuse by any means, but jeez; think if that were to happen to you and how you'd feel if you felt like there was no way but to compromise your integrity.

Back to the first guy: I didn't know him in any sense of the word, but the way he handled the situation then, and the things I see him doing now relating to his business make it pretty clear (to me at least) that he is an opportunist of the worst kind, so good luck with that buddy.

The long and short of this whole topic is pretty well summarized by saying s--- happens. Fool me once, shame on you; but fool me twice, shame on me!

7th Oct 2014 07:34 UTCAnonymous User

I have pointed out what I thought were mislabeled specimens in rock shops and mineral shows on more than one occasion. Most of the time I was correct, but sometimes I was not. About half of the time the dealer got angry when I would say something like, " You have a mis-labeled specimen in this case." I have since changed my tact, especially after having been proved incorrect a few times. I now say, "I think you may have a specimen mis-labeled in this case." It lowers the "in-your-face" aspect, and provides for the possibility of being incorrect. A lot of times it is not as much what we say, but how we say it.

7th Oct 2014 17:11 UTCA. M.

When correcting someone it is a good idea to tread carefully. Never accuse, it may be a simple mistake, which is embarrassing enough. I tell them I think this may be (whatever species, whatever locality) and I point out features on the specimen that led me to think so, I invite them to seek another person's opinion on it (if you know there's an expert around point to them, so and so may know more), and end with "perhaps the labels got accidentally mixed up" - which happened to be the case a few times - buyers move things around and don't always put them back in the same place.

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