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GeneralScarring?

15th Feb 2010 02:38 UTCAndrew Johns

Hello all, after a scary 3 week stay at St Mikes hospital in Toronto from a historically bad bout of chicken pox, double pneumonia and a lung virus and being on a ventilator for 2.5 weeks I have a question for everyone? My respiratory surgeon was asked by my wife some of the things I do. Rockhounding came up. He then advised her that I have some scarring on my lungs.. This is from rockhounding and inhaling the dust and particulate. I have only been doing this for 2 years. Does anyone else out there wear a mask? 3M or equivalent. This was an absolutely life changing month of my life. Just want to know what people are doing out there to protect themselves? Now when I"m saw cutting I use a mask but not when I'm in the field.

Andrew Johns.

15th Feb 2010 02:54 UTCDon Saathoff Expert

Andrew, for what it's worth, I rapidly approaching 70yrs. I been busting rock and collecting since I was 9yrs. I've never worn any kind of mask but I've been a smoker since I was 12yrs.......maybe the coating of tar, etc, has protected my lungs??!!?. I've also lived with "hotrocks" for the same length of time (one of my first specimens was a carnotite from Karnes Co.,Texas.....and still have it and all the radioactives collected in the REE pegmatites of central Texas.

My only ill effect has been a case of leprosy contracted from the Mexican Banded Armadillo (probably breathing the dust the Armadillo dug in.....they carry the bacteria in their footpads).

SOOOO, I don't really have much to tell you except that I've never worn any protection from anything except the Sun.....

Don S.

15th Feb 2010 03:26 UTCEzekiel Hughes

I haven't even really started cutting...just a tile cutter I've used to make maybe 100 cuts...but I always wear a mask rated for asbestos...just to be safe.

Tar on the lungs? maybe...I'm a smoker too...but maybe a genetic disposition :-)

15th Feb 2010 13:30 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert

Several years ago, I had a severe case of pneumonia and was in the ICU for two weeks. Chest x-rays taken periodically for the next year revealed scarring. However, a recent x-ray revealed complete healing-no abnormalities visible.

I don't wear a mask.

15th Feb 2010 14:49 UTCDennis Tryon

I know that any dust from polishing or grinding beryl is extremely hazardous. I've never had any of the sort of problems you describe.

Dennis

15th Feb 2010 16:13 UTCDonald Doell Expert

I will not comment on any of these particular situations, but can add a little bit to what I know about Silicosis in general.

Asbestiform inhalation aside... the most dangerous exposures it seems are from freshly blasted or fractured quartz, cristoblaite and tridymite that forms dust fine enough to be inhaled. The risk is probably dose related and cumulative. The lesions take the form of silicotic nodules that are usually asymptomatic, often found incidentally, and may eventually lead to progressive massive fibrosis at which point there is often impairment in lung function. I suppose these lesions might be described as "scarring", but that would be a very imprecise way of putting it, as these lesions tend to have a quite typical radiographic and histologic appearance. These tend to be chronic manifestations occurring after many years 10 to 30 years (two years would be a little soon). Although silica exposure and silicosis have been linked to tuberculosis and some rheumatologic conditions, I think a link to viral and bacterial pneumonias is much less likely. Acute silicosis does exist and tends to be extremely severe and is related to extremely high exposures to silica dust (this exposure would not be subtle, nor would the clinical presentation)

Using appropriate protection when exposed to high risk inhalation activities seems to be quite effective in preventing disease.

For most lung diseases it is quite common and appropriate for doctors to ask about occupational and/or other exposures to dust (organic or inorganic). The difficulty comes in one's ability to interpret the significance of such exposures and they may be either under or over appreciated. This involves being able to appreciate both the clinical clues of the disease presentation and physical, biological and often mineralogical context of the exposure.

15th Feb 2010 16:17 UTCDonald Doell Expert

Beryllium related lung disease is related to exposure to elemental beryllium, often in aluminum reprocessing and not due to exposure to beryl, which I believe has never been proven to be harmful, other than due to the fact that it often occurs in quartz.

15th Feb 2010 16:54 UTCMark Gottlieb

I don't think two years of even very dusty rock hounding would do that to you. Plenty of environmental exposure available from more common sources; what do you do for a living? other hobbies?, do you live in or near an industrial area?, moldy nasty basement in your house? I am not a Dr. but maybe go see a lung specialist. In my opinion, any Dr. that would hint at two years of rock hounding as the source of your scarring is likely to be a quack.

15th Feb 2010 17:51 UTCKnut Eldjarn 🌟 Manager

Andrew,

like many others I would be surprised if 2 years of "rockhounding" would put anyone at special risk of developing any "scarring" of the lungs - if we are talking of ordinary collecting activities as most of us practice. A day of digging in old dumps with the occasional use of hammers or chissels will probably give you less exposure to harmfull dust than a visit to an industrialized and traffic-infested city. But blowing dust from a freshly drilled and blasted quarry could be a different matter - depending on the minerals in the dust. In such cases a protection of the airways would be sensible as in the case of using drilling or sawing equipment on specimens. As mentioned by others certain mineral dusts like quartz, asbestos or beryl would be particularly harmfull with others like limestone or feldspar less so. In my experience most collecting sites are in areas where people are more exposed to fresh air than during their everyday life. Sensible doctors should encourage ordinary rockhounding or any other outdoor activity with physical exercise rather than putting a scare in people based on utter ignorance.

Knut

15th Feb 2010 18:07 UTCA. M.

Maybe you will find some helpful info here?

http://www.lung.ca/diseases-maladies/a-z/pfibrosis-fibrosep/index_e.php

http://www.ec.gc.ca/cas-aqhi/default.asp?lang=En&n=CB0ADB16-1

It never hurts to get a second and third opinion. Physicians may easily blame it on the "obvious", which may not necessarily be. You have a history of respiratory illness.

I wish you a speedy recovery!

15th Feb 2010 18:27 UTCGord Howe

These scars could have resulted from a whole variety of things that happened in your past. I have no idea how old you are or what you do for a living but,I do know that here in Canada asbestos didn't really become a bad guy until the 70s and prior to that it was used with pretty much reckless abandon. In other words you didn't really have to work in heavy industry to be exposed to it.Asbestos is by no means the only culprit, either. Most any kind of mineral dust is bad news and some , like quartz or amphiboles, are worse than most. Exactly where this scarring came from may remain a mystery. I'm sure you are going to keep a close eye on it and do whatever you have to keep it from getting worse. If that means wearing a mask, so be it.

Gord

15th Feb 2010 20:29 UTCMatthew McCaw

Andrew,

I agree with the others but did question some of my cleaning/processing methods?

Found the following link interesting, not sure if it applies:

http://www.ehow.com/about_5612337_necessary-reflux-because-lung-problems_.html

Hydrochloric/ (Muriatic) acid is what our stomach produces and something as simple as acid reflux can cause scarring of the lungs over time.

So if I am reading into this correctly and the acid in my stomach is the same is what I use to clean my rocks. I guess it’s safe to say years of having my breath taken away were not a good thing.

Either that or remember the article so you can tell your doc that it had nothing to do with your hobby and was results of simple acid reflux!

Be smart, wear a mask or stay off/away from the acid!

15th Feb 2010 20:57 UTCAndrew Johns

Sorry everyone, this all began with chicken pox that went to my lungs then a bad case of double pneumonia and a virus as well. They just noticed this bit of scarring with all the tests they ran. This is the only answer they could give my family. I've never done anything at work that could have caused this. It's not major scarring but they did notice some. Most of what I'm hearing is giving me some relief and I appreciate everyone's input.

Thankyou Andrew..

15th Feb 2010 22:14 UTCMatthew McCaw

Andrew,

Seriously hope all is well.

I hope to see/meet you at Montrose occurrence very soon.

You can wear a mask and just point me in the right direction!

I will even do all the dirty work.

I think some nice clean spring air soon is just what the doctor ordered!

15th Feb 2010 22:49 UTCRudy Bolona Expert

Andrew,

First of all I hope you make a full recovery. Being a pegmatite collector and specifically radioactive pegmatite species, I always wear a good quality 3M dust mask, and some times even a full respirator. These deposits are concentrations of radioactive dusts and various other particulates such as quartz and feldspar. None of that stuff is good for the lungs. Keep on digging, just take some precautions.

16th Feb 2010 00:18 UTCDavid K. Joyce Expert

Hi Andrew,

A few years ago, I had to have some x-rays and the medical team noticed "a shadow on my lungs". Scared the hell out of me as they hinted that it could be something sinister. Went home, didn't sleep, wrote my will. I had a new more detailed set of x-rays taken and interpreted within 24 hours. The doctor asked me if I'd ever had pneumonia and I told him that I had when I was a child. The second set of detailed x-rays showed nothing significant and the doctor wrote off the "shadow" as something not serious and linked to my childhood pneumonia.

Similar problem? Any comments, doctors?

David K. Joyce

16th Feb 2010 01:30 UTCMichael Adamowicz Expert

Andrew

Glad your alright. I have always worried about the dust i might be inhaling when ime out collecting & chipping at rock. I don't think the risk is too high because its not an activity that is done very often. For on thing the air is much cleaner up north then in the large cities like Knut said. i also trim rocks but i wear a weak mask & i trim maybe 20 times a year, very infrequently. Just to be on the safe site i probably will improve my respirator gear and maybe take it with me in the filed. I suppose that for a doctor to attribute some "scarring" to rock collecting is the easy answer. I agree that multiple doctors opinions could help provide a better reason for the scarring. Also the experience of veteran collectors regarding dust inhalation during rock hounding could help us understand the situation.

Get better quickly so you can be out collecting.:)

Michal.

16th Feb 2010 03:13 UTCJohn Duck

I will add my two cents here. As a retired geologist with excellent lungs (non-smoker) I think this concern is unfounded. A life-time of exposure in a mine or quarry would be required to cause silicosis of the lungs. Anything from pneumonia, lung infections, inhalation of corrosive chemicals, bleach, etc can cause scarring of the lungs. You just can't get this type of pathology from usual rockhounding activities (exception if you are using hydrochloric acid or other volatile chemicals in confined, unventilated spaces. See Mark's comment above.

Regarding shadows on x-rays: these are commonly the result of the photographic development process, nothing more. So the doctor does another x-ray to confirm the first. If the doctor was really concerned and on his game he would have ordered a CT scan or MRI which are the only ways to get an accurate and clear look at structures of the lung. The downside is that a CT scan of the chest is equal to the radiation exposure of about 300 chest x-rays. MRI has no radiation exposure.

16th Feb 2010 08:33 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

If rock dust were that dangerous in small quantities, intermittently, over a 2 year period, then all of the millions of people living alongside dirt roads would be in grave peril - they breathe mineral dust every time a car drives by. All construction workers would be near death too. So it's not quite as dire as that. But, over the long term, all dust particles are bad for the lungs, whether from rocks, factories, construction sites, mold, mites, aerosol sprays, wood, flour, dung, smoke, vacuum cleaners... whatever. I'd advise avoiding getting anything into your lungs except clean air, but not panicking if you get the occasional exposure to a bit of dust. Use filters when necessary.

(Addendum: I don't mean to imply here that all kinds of dust are equally bad. As Donald points out below some (like quartz and amphiboles) are significantly more dangerous than others. But personally I feel safer avoiding all dusts, or as much as possible.)

16th Feb 2010 16:29 UTCDonald Doell Expert

A couple points.

MRI of the lungs is generally not done. CT scan is usually considered the preferred imaging modality. Chest x-rays are most commonly used because they are quick to do, in-expensive and involve a much smaller radiation dose. They do have many flaws. This is related to the fact that they are only a two dimensional image and so structures tend to overlap and this can lead to problems in discriminating between two similarly radio-opaque overlapping structures. This is not to say that a chest x-ray is not extremely useful. However, the usefulness of any test depends on several factors. The first is what we call, in medicine, the pre-test probability and this is a function of the entire clinical picture and the likelihood that a patient is to have a particular problem. The other factor is the sensitivity and specificity of the given test and its findings. A certain finding may be very suggestive of a single disease or it may alternatively have many possible causes. Also a test may be very good at picking-up a certain disease or it may alternatively often miss a disease. Your test is useful if the post-test probability is a lot different than the pre-test probability in a useful way and this is directly influenced by pre-test probability, sensitivity and specificity of the test and its findings. These are some of the fundamental principles or modern evidence-based medicine. A chest x-ray is used done for many possible reasons and so can have many possible findings. Some of these findings are more useful than others.

Not all dust is equal.

Diseases caused by inorganic dust are very different in its characteristics and pathogenesis from diseases caused by organic dust.

Also physical properties of the dust effect their distribution into and clearance from the lungs – as does smoking.

The diseases caused by inorganic dust are:

1. Berylliosis (not caused by beryl or any other beryllium containing mineral, but by refined elemental beryllium and in aluminum recycling)

2. Coal worker’s pneumoconiosis (seems to be worse with certain types of coal and this may be a function of quartz, marcasite and pyrite content in coal)

3. Asbestos related diseases that include, among others; mesothelioma, other lung cancers, asbestosis, pleural plaques. Amphiboles are much more potent than serpentine group minerals and may be related to fiber size and flexibility.

4. Silicosis that is certainly caused by inhalation of quartz, tridymite, cristoblaite. Micas, clay minerals and talc may also be implicated by this may be confounded by association with quartz. However, talc certainly is an immune stimulant and this property is actually used clinically in therapeutic talc pleurodesis.

Freshly blasted silica is much more potent. This is likely related to the generation of free oxygen radicals on the surface of freshly fractured quartz. This principal is re-enforced (I think) by the fact that amorphous silicon dioxide, such as in glass, seems not to be implicated in disease.

There are also many diseases caused by inorganic dust and again certain inorganic dust is much worse than other inorganic dust. Very, very generally these would include diseases that are caused by direct chemical irritation, allergic (hypersensitivity) type reactions and infection with bacteria, fungi and parasites - (N.B. Parasites not Paristites).

I hope that this clears-up some of the information/mis-information in this tread and answers some questions.

16th Feb 2010 17:30 UTCSpencer Ivan Mather

Hi Andrew, I have been cutting and polishing beryl for many years without using a mask, and it has not affected me one bit! I have also been rock bashing for 42 years without any mask, with no harm done! You say that you had a virus infection of your lungs, this could cause the scarring, if you smoke then this will also cause a slight scarring, caused by certain chemicals in the tobacco.

So carry on bashing rocks and collecting minerals without a mask, except when collecting asbestos type minerals!

Spencer.

16th Feb 2010 21:59 UTCRudy Bolona Expert

Here's my scenario. When I discovered a large samarskite mass at the Black Cloud Pegmatite, Teller County, Colorado, ( There's a photo of this mass I posted on Mindat at this locality's data section. I remember when I worked this thing with a hammer and chisel there was all kinds of dust and debris flying including feldspar, quartz, biotite and samarskite. I wore a good quality dust mask. Is this just overkill on my part or would inhaling samarskite particles be a threat for disease in the future. Even if you did inhale samarskite, wouldn't the respiratory lining/lungs eventually clear it before the radioactivity in the tiny particles had a chance to cause some sort of mutation?

17th Feb 2010 01:09 UTCAndrew Johns

Thanks everyone, my mind is at ease.. I will continue to do what I love whether it be with a mask or not.

Thanks, Andrew.

17th Feb 2010 03:23 UTCDonald Doell Expert

Dust accumulation in the lungs depends on deposition and clearance of the dust.

Deposition is a function of the size, geometric and aerodynamic properties of the particles – namely the physical characteristics of the mineral and manner in which the dust particles are formed. For example: the particles can't be too big or they will not get far enough into the lungs, or if too small they will get in, but then just as easily get out.

Clearance depends on biological factors via both cellular (via phagocytosis - cells eating and trying to degrade the particles) and mucociliary mechanisms (the respiratory lining you mention - this can be damaged by smoking and that is why smokers may be at higher risk) Certain characteristics of the particles can also impede clearance. Quartz is very potent stimulator of inflammation and the immune system and is very difficult to break down though cellular mechanisms and will often lead to lysis (destruction) of cells leading to further inflammation. The particles from asbestiform minerals similarly lead to these problems. Because they are long and slender they tend to get stuck in the lungs and then when cells try to swallow them they can't get around the long particles and will also get destroyed.

I am not aware if anyone has ever studied the effect of inhalation of radioactive dust particles. It is certainly possible that this could cause trouble, but I would imagine that the dose of radiation is probably so small that it would not cause a major biological response and not as significant as the severe inflammatory and immune response to silica and asbestos. We know that dust particles can stay in the lungs for long periods of time forming what are called ferruginous bodies and are also found in silicotic nodules and coal nodules or macules. I don't know what the significance of radioactive particles present chronically in the lungs would have, if it is even possible. I'm not sure we will ever know - given that exposure to radioactive dust would always be confounded by associated exposure to quartz. Also this would be confounded by the normal risks of exposure to radiation in any other manner inhalation or otherwise. Although I have not been able to find any convincing reports of disease caused by direct exposure to radioactive minerals. Mostly the problem seems to be long-term exposure to radon gas in underground mines. If anyone knows of any publications to the contrary, I would be very interested in them.

17th Feb 2010 08:35 UTCjacques jedwab

A good pneumology hospital dept. is able to bring a factual answer on mineral-induced lung disease. One uses catheters by which physiological liquid is brought into the lung, re-aspirated , and the washing filtered on membrane. Samples are then brought under the SEM/EMP or TEM/EMP, and mineral particles analysed. Occupational particles are recognizable, often covered by ferroprotein (so-called asbestos-bodies, which can affect talc, coal, metallic turnings, etc.)

See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC459624/ (sorry for the antiquity of the reference).

Cheer up! J.J.

17th Feb 2010 11:59 UTCDonald Doell Expert

That was a good article on about the BAL for confirming non-occupational exposure. Another thing that is used to confirm clinically significant exposure has been the use of a chest x-ray for finding pleural plaques, which is a very specific finding on chest x-ray for asbestos exposure. The plaques tend to not cause symptoms themselves, but can help determine whether someone's restrictive lung disease or lung cancer may have been contributed to by clinically significant asbestos exposure.

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