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GeneralAncient Malachite Carvings

8th Jul 2016 19:14 UTCJohn Dougal

Hello fellow members,

I am brand new to the forum and stumbled across it as I was completing some research on malachite. I truly believe it is one of the most beautiful minerals in the world!

I collect ancient artifacts, primarily from Asia. A large portion of my collection now consists of stunning works of art carved in malachite. Based on the iconography/style I would place this between 4,000 and 2,000 BCE and in the region of what is Inner Mongolia.

The two pieces I would like to share with you are my largest, and I would like to get a feel from anyone on the board as to whether they have ever seen malachite carvings that look anything like this. Please see how the artist was able to incorporate the natural banding of the malachite into the piece of art. This I feel is genius and nearly baffling to me.

The first item is what is known in ancient Asia as a zhulong, or pig dragon, is 56 x 43cm and weighs over 28kg! It is thick and solid!

The second item is a bird of prey totem (hawk or eagle), is 51 x 41cm and weighs in at 23kg.

Can you imagine the size of the raw material necessary to carve these pieces. Does raw material in this size and quality even exist any more? I am not new to ancient art, but I am new to the world of minerals so your expertise is very much appreciated.

It's hard to describe the feeling handling these masterpieces. I truly hope the pictures do it justice. Thanks in advance for any insightful comments you can offer.

Cheers,

John

8th Jul 2016 22:22 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Welcome to Mindat John. Those are wonderful carvings by some one who really understood the material. How can you be sure of the age?

8th Jul 2016 22:51 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

From my point of view, it is absolutely impossible manufacturing of such items in Inner Mongolia in 4,000-2,000 BC.

But it is quite possible somewhere in modern China later of 80th of XX century.

There aren't any source of malachite of such size and quality in whole China (+Mongolia and Siberia).

Such malachite able to come only from Kongo. We all know, when these locality was discovered.

Of course you may to fooling yourself as long as you want, but these items are obvious modern fakes.(td)(td)(td)

8th Jul 2016 22:52 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

Curious, I do have a passing interest in Chinese art & culture, and while a resident associate at the Smithsonian I'd spent much of my time at the Freer Gallery, even taking evening classes there, but I've never seen any Chinese objects fashioned from malachite (pre 20th C.), not there, not at the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, not in the Metropolitain in New York, nor even in the cultural museum in Shanghai that I visited a just few years back. Rather uncommon if you ask me.

The HongShan culture was a Jade culture as well, and was only recently discovered (1937). It would seem to have been the bridging culture into the bronze age (and compelling article was written about how brass may have been a precursor to bronze there), so, certainly they would have been familiar with this material at some point, but I can find no academic literature that suggests it was ever a material used for carvings, and seemingly no suggestions nor evidence of artifacts being recovered made of this material.

I do see there is a lot of malachite carvings on ebay and etsy "claiming" to be ancient Chinese artifacts from HongShan Dynasty. Color me skeptical.

MRH

8th Jul 2016 23:11 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Very impressive, John, both for the material and the workmanship, but I would agree with Pavel and Mark that these are likely modern Chinese copies made with Congo malachite. Congo is the most likely source for such large pieces of malachite, and ancient trade with Congo is unlikely. Furthermore, malachite is chemically a rather easily soluble carbonate, so I'd expect a piece that had been buried for thousands of years to be rather corroded and ugly. But I'm a geologist, not an antiquities expert, so what do I know.

8th Jul 2016 23:15 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

Regardless, I'll take this opportunity to post this wonderful Copper Crescent specimen on display at the Royal Museum for Central Africa, in Brussels, Belgium.

Thankfully, there is still no shortage of good material coming from that region!

8th Jul 2016 23:20 UTCBob Harman

I agree with PAVEL. From my limited knowledge of these things I think they are modern fakes. If your photos are true, the carvings don't even look like solid carved malchite; not the exact correct color, patina or surface features. And the 2 pix, especially the first one, looks more a Mexican or South American motif (Inca or Aztec??) than Asian. Even tho these peoples used primarily jade or similar minerals, maybe it is malachite, but I might even consider perhaps plaster of paris with a cleverly painted surface. CHEERS.......BOB

9th Jul 2016 02:25 UTCJohn Dougal

Thank you all for your respectable posts; I appreciate it. I also appreciate those that have an open mind and also those who are skeptical. There is so much we don't know nor understand about ancient cultures yet we are learning more and more every day. Unfortunately so much has been suppressed by past cultures and even with current governments today.

I added a illustrative statistic below that most are unaware of and that is the absolutely insane amount of construction (destruction) and concrete use China has experienced over the past few years. I won't go into the economics of why they're doing it here since it's not the appropriate forum, but whenever this unprecedented amount of building occurs, ungodly amounts of earth is moved. The laws are strict yet filled with loopholes when it comes to ownership and sale of items found when unearthing tombs. So to me, logically, it makes absolute sense that there has been a flood of these items on the market during this same period.

There are some dig site pictures I've seen that show malachite objects positioned around and buried with the bones. The iconography of all the pieces I have match with the period culture, and with no modern tooling. There is minor pitting if you are able to observe up close and I can since I have a stereo microscope with 270x magnification. To note, these tombs were lime slabs so they preserved everything very well.

I shared the two largest I have although I also have many others over a kg each that have the same artistry/iconography of that period etc. I also have an enormous collection of jade, agate and meteoric glass from that period.

I won't say what I paid for them, but I'm curious how much you think it would cost to pay a modern artist in china or elsewhere to locate a huge slab of malachite of this quality and whittle it down to these beautiful objects; all while incorporating ONLY primitive methods of tooling and also incorporating the natural striations/circles of the malachite into the piece.

And to Bob, these are definitely not anything but malachite. I have moved them around several times over the past few days and have nearly pulled my back doing so. :) Again, 28 and 23kg respectively.

More comments are very welcome please.

9th Jul 2016 03:24 UTCMatt Courville

Hello John, these are very nice carvings. Personally I would need to be confident of at lease one solid source for such large malachite in the China/Mongolia region before purchasing one of these myself. I collect ancient coins and I also know that Pavel shares this hobby as well - and most copper based relics show their age once exposed to the elements. I'm unsure how malachite would react, but these look very fresh. Perhaps you should be open to various testing methods? I do agree with you that we are still like children in understanding everything about ancient cultures; with much assumptions and long-standing theories based off of these assumptions. Hopefully you could prove some of us wrong;-).....and then share

9th Jul 2016 03:48 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

Dear John,

once again you convinced nobody.

Ancient and medieval Chinese culture hadn't expirience of works with malachite carving. Malachite as whole was entered into world carving culture by Russian jewelers in the middle of XVIII century after discovery large malachite masses of gem quality in Mednorudyansk deposit.

If you want to carve some material, you must to have some natural source of this material.

The closest to China deposit of malachite of quality, comparable with your items, is known in Salair range. But this malachite was discovered on Kamenushinskoe deposit only couple years ago - http://webmineral.ru/deposits/gallery.php?id=3042&filter=21189&page=2. This is completely new deposit with no traces of ancient or medieval mining.

Trade connections between China and Central Africa in ancient times is nonsence. Chinese reaches Africa coast only in Ming times, not earlier.

There aren't any deposit on China territory (and surrounding territories) from where malachite of such size and quality may to be mined. Otherwice malachite carved items would be well and long ago known to archeologists and art specialists. What we don't observe. Moreover, malachite isn't too popular in China carving material. This explained by very short period of its appearing on Chinese market.

From my point of view, it is impossible to don't like malachite. But Russia had 2.5 century of time to appreciate and love this material.

The next steps of Chinese fakemakers will become "ancient" carved items from lazurite, rhodonite, labradorite and finally charoite... :-D:-D:-D "unearthed in tombs"...

By the way, I suppose, that big part of yours "jade, agate and meteoric glass" (especially the later) are the same modern fakes, if you received them from the same sources. So traces of work on them can be identical.

Did you ever visit rock carving workshop in China? Their technology very often includes only primitive methods of tooling.:-D

9th Jul 2016 04:18 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

Malachite is unstable on contact with ground waters - it etching by them with formation of finedisperse layers of reprecepitated malachite. This occurs in case of clear spring water. If ground waters are mineralised (as it is usually) additional mineral phases would grow over malachite surface - azurite, atacamite, chalcocite, different hydrous copper sulphates.

Look at outer surface of the malachite aggregate http://www.mindat.org/photo-270351.html (lover part of the slab). The sample occurs in dumps about 150 years after initial extracting from mother rock.

Ground waters of Inner Mongolia are saline. So formation of new formed atacamite over malachite is very probable.

If we even assume that these items are genuine, they must to be cleaned and repolished. I don't see any traces of alteration or long contact with ground on your items.

9th Jul 2016 07:34 UTCJohn Dougal

Pavel, I do appreciate your expertise in the subject matter you are most educated in. However, why do you imply that I was trying to convince you or anyone else on this forum that these are genuine? I was simply asking for insights and opinions and stating what I know. You made it a bit more personal which I'm not quite sure why.

I'm still looking for anyone to rationalize the economics behind the subject. So let's see; Chinese artist way out in country-side finds raw exporter of massive high quality chunk of malachite in Africa and has it shipped to him/her. Artist then proceeds to pain-mistakenly carve it without the use of modern tools into an icon that is little known to most people in the hope that someone, like me, will send a buyer searching across the country-side to locate this piece and ship it to me? All for a very low relative price. Does this make any sense to you? Again, how can anyone sustain themselves on what most likely is a negative ROI? To me, the answer is simple. There was no import, there was no labor involved in carving it, and the only cost involved is a finders fee for the middle man and shipping cost to me.

This is just my rationalization of how such a piece can be acquired for what it was acquired for. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I did ask for it so please feel free to retort.

Cheers,

John

9th Jul 2016 08:28 UTCDoug Daniels

John-

We don't know what you paid for the pieces, and really is none of our business. If they really were obtained at a low cost, then they likely are not true ancient artifacts (even the Chinese aren't dumb). If they were made recently, then how could a lowly Chinese carver make them and make money? (And, some of us are aware of where, and when, LARGE chunks of malachite suitable for carving could be obtained.) Look at all the stuff being made in China and sent to the U.S. (and elsewhere) for sale. Still, they are nice pieces; they may actually be worth more than you paid. Remember, we are a mineral site, not an artisinal valuation site. And, we are giving our opinions.....

9th Jul 2016 09:30 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

According to Alibaba modern malachite carvings from China are selling for somewhere between $20 and $100 per kg

9th Jul 2016 09:33 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

Dear John,

no something personal. Probably my English isn't too perfect. Often I am feeling, that people understand my texts under slightly another angle then I write them.

I would like to say you one simple thing. There are things probable, unlikely and absolutely incredible. As I can to see, you inclined to chose the last scenario for your believing.

I am collector with 40 years expirience and saw a lot of fakes of any kinds. I don't try to invent any explanations, why this coin http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHINA-ANCIENT-JIN-DYNASTY-COIN-OLD-BRONZE-MONEY-Zheng-Long-Yuan-Bao-/112050723535?hash=item1a16be5acf:g:-6QAAOSwbYZXaezu is so cheap. I simply know, that it is fake. In other words, I know how rare is genuine item of such type, how it must to looks like and how much it can to cost.

In completely other words, any Chinese seller who propose numismatic material not from time to time, but constantly, knows real price of this rare variety, and never ask so funny price for it.

Your hope in impossible is so large... Frankly speaking, I wouldn't believe my own eyes even in case if these items would be excavated from underground on my eyes.

It is interesting, which explanation you'll try to invent for explain of origin of such "prehistorical find" - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carved-Charoite-Crystal-Quan-Yin-/251984925803?hash=item3aab78d46b:g:gdAAAOSw3xJVcewv Everybody knows, that charoite was started use as gem stone in 1976. It was unknown before.

Situation with malachite is absolutely the same.

9th Jul 2016 14:13 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

I fully agree with Pavel.

In China anything is carved and a lot is faked.

9th Jul 2016 14:17 UTCMatt Courville

Pavel you are doing great at communicating, and I only wish I could type as good in Russian:)-D John, I hope that you don't get discouraged with mindat and take a look around at some photos, etc., because it can be a lot of fun (especially if you go out collecting the minerals in person)

Please if you don't already know to do this - avoid e-bay at all costs for anything other than someones's granparent's old clock for example. In the ancient coin world this site has become a plague for sincere collectors, but at least I can be certain of about 12 or so techniques for ID-ing a fake coin. Perhaps you should try and figure-out some techniques to either prove or disprove what you have in mind for your various carving pieces. I've linked a site with a messageboard which you might find more insight into your items. It has a specific area for antiquities which is the area I linked you to. Hope this helps.

Matt

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?board=48.0

9th Jul 2016 16:19 UTCJohn Dougal

Thanks all for more insights. And Pavel, no worries at all. We are good!

This is exactly what I was looking for; other views and perspectives to give me the motivation to continue my research. I need to remain objective while leveraging the scientific method although don't want to discount something because it's never been officially documented before. But that's where my research must continue.

I have much larger and heavier examples of nephrite jade carvings that are definite 'head-scratchers' but I'll keep those under wraps for now. :)

I will definitely continue to check out your great site since one of my earliest fascinations was collecting rocks/minerals and meteorites. Thanks again.

Cheers,

John

10th Jul 2016 01:00 UTCGreg Dainty

Pavel, I have been meaning to comment for a long while now, your post are a real pleasure to read, and educational, thanks.

10th Jul 2016 03:02 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

Greg, as they say in Russia - Спасибо на добром слове (~~Thanks for kind words).

But you demonstrated me again, that my English is bad. :-( I unable adequately to translate the first part of your sentence (with vocabulary and on-line translator). I don't know grammar enough, too complicated construction for me.

We all gathered there for communication, and education through it. If it wouldn't be interesting for us, we would find some other pastimes.

In any case, I am glad, that my opinions are interesting to somebody out there. Probably because of not too much who interested in them here. At least this helps in keeping my English at the same bad level, without its deterioration.;-)

10th Jul 2016 06:42 UTCHerwig Pelckmans

Pavel,

Your English is not bad, it is improving. :-)

The first part of the sentence of Greg, written in less complicated English:
"Pavel, for a long time now I wanted to let you know, your posts ..."

I can only agree: your posts are a real pleasure to read and very educational. People like you really improve the communications on Mindat.

We can only hope other people like you will join and "speak up".

Thanks again,

Cheers, Herwig

10th Jul 2016 11:16 UTCUwe Ludwig

I read this thread only just and I would like to give my experience to this subject. I spend many time during my business life in China. Therefore I feel free to write down my experience.

1. In Chinese say: “A copy is so good as the original”. Generally Chinese have a total different feeling to fakes compared to the Western people.

2. Chinese are excellent craftsmen. When they copy an ancient subject they make it so good that only experts can evaluate it.

3. In such a high populated country as China it is nearly impossible to make a secretly unearthing and it is absolutely forbidden to have private unearthing. In China all ground is state owned. So for example in the region around the unopened tomb hills near Xian (and every where) agricultural activities except of fruit plants are forbidden.

4. Around this tomb hills there are a lot of dealers which present their stone carved objects (polluted with clay) as “very old” and “fresh unearthed”. Unbelievable that the officials would allow this because the exporting of historical objects is also strictly forbidden. Only some official antique dealers make a government seal on the bills which allow the export.

At last I think the surface of the showed objects is too fresh for an unearthed object.

Best Regards

Uwe Ludwig

10th Jul 2016 14:41 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

Pavel,

I always like your comments on all the threads you comment on. I am only fluent in two languages and Russian is not one of them.

I agree with all the comments about the malachite carvings being recent.

I have often been amazed at how many things people fake, some don't seem worth the time to create.

A couple of examples. Galena geodes which are interesting but just wrong.

Silver wires glued to matrix sold as Mexican specimens. A friend put one in water overnight to soften all the grime, only to find all the wires on the bottom and the white glue showing. I am sure many know how rare matrix diamonds are and how few sold are actually genuine.

The list is too long.

These carvings we see at the shows and people can make any claim to sell them, even have full documentation along with them, also fake. Always informative to read.

Rolf

10th Jul 2016 16:06 UTCJohn Dougal

Would anyone be willing to share an up-close picture of a more recent cut and polished piece of malachite (say created within the past 80 years), preferably under 10x magnification?

I continued to evaluate the malachite pieces I have and while someone obviously cleaned them up, under closer examination there is definite tine pitting throughout each piece that is clearly visible under 10x magnification. This pitting would be impossible to fake based on the the sheer number, size and while keeping the overall finish of the malachite intact.

Pavel - you definitely seem to know a lot about how other minerals/water/etc. would impact malachite over time. What I'm trying to understand is whether the pitting I see is something that could potentially happen in <80 year period of time. The 80 year period is boxing to the period in which the first Hongshan discovery took place.

If it even takes hundreds of years before something like this happens then I'll know it likely is not a modern piece. Then I would continue my research to determine if a later Chinese culture, in appreciation of the iconography, created it.

Anyone's help here would be greatly appreciated!

Also, to Uwe. Thank you very much for your response.

In response to point #1: Understood and agreed. With these pieces however, they are minimally not copies and while some will argue are not genuinely ancient, they cannot be copies of something that didn't exist before it. Copy of a ming vase? Of course. Copy of a 28kg giant malachite zhulong/pig dragon? I say show me the original if a 'copy'.

In response to point #2: Again, you can't copy that of which doesn't already exist.

In response to point #3: There are several 'loop-holes' in Chinese law that allow these goods to be passed and sold on the market. They may not actually be loop-holes per se, but it does allow unearthed items to be legally sold after the point they leave the hands of the person who originally found them.

In response to point #4: When all of these items are shipped out, every package, every one, states the content is stone art, artware, art, etc. I was always curious why they did so until I looked into it further and realized it was more of a method to cover their arses.

Cheers,

John

10th Jul 2016 19:51 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

John Dougal Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In response to point #1: Understood and agreed.

> With these pieces however, they are minimally not

> copies and while some will argue are not genuinely

> ancient, they cannot be copies of something that

> didn't exist before it. Copy of a ming vase? Of

> course. Copy of a 28kg giant malachite

> zhulong/pig dragon? I say show me the original if

> a 'copy'.

>

> In response to point #2: Again, you can't copy

> that of which doesn't already exist.

>

Dear John,

it looks like, that you are not familiar with the concept of "fantasy". It means modern fake object which haven't real hystorical prototype. A lot of such fantasies are manufactured In China from early Republican times.

In Russian numismatic typical example of such fantasy is "rouble of tsaritsa Sophia" - https://yandex.ru/images/search?img_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.russian-money.ru%2F%28X%281%29S%28qlmk1g55c4ts4k55fenyg145%29%29%2FUsersImages%2FArticles%2F4%2FUser%2FPetr_Ich.jpg&text=%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D1%8C%20%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%86%D1%8B%20%D0%A1%D0%BE%D1%84%D1%8C%D0%B8&noreask=1&pos=1&lr=213&rpt=simage

Some Chinese fantastic coins from my personal collection:

http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=25139

http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=43630

http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=36611 no any iron coin was cast in Ming times

http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=49167

http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=43631

Fantasies from auctions:

http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=147369

http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=109946

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHINA-LIAO-DYNASTY-907-1125-AD-CASH-O-TIAN-CHAO-WAN-SHU-AU158-/122020305026?hash=item1c68fa1882:g:vnYAAOSwmtJXZnnD

Unfortunately topic of fantasies is endless one.

John Dougal Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In response to point #4: When all of these items are shipped out,

> every package, every one, states the content is stone art, artware,

> art, etc. I was always curious why they did so until I looked into it

> further and realized it was more of a method to cover their arses.

:-D:-D:-D The main "a method to cover their arses" is exactly selling of copies and fantasies instead of real antique items. Everybody knows this, but you don't want to understand this.

10th Jul 2016 20:48 UTCJohn Dougal

Pavel - I'm trying to appreciate your opinion here, but you write with such smugness and unwarranted omniscience that I'm not sure I care to continue.

I was looking for a scientific approach here, not an opinion-based anecdotal diatribe of your past experience with shotty old spoof coins. I understand what fantasy items are but in the case of the zhulong/pig dragon iconography of the Hongshan, there are many examples in existence in museums, although not necessarily of that media. So because a communist regime doesn't have it on display in a museum means that it doesn't exist or has never existed?

I was really looking forward to you answering my question regarding the time required to begin breaking down malachite (into the pitting I'm observing) but instead received something else. It appears I've exhausted resources on this forum. Upwards and onward.

10th Jul 2016 22:00 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

Jonh, you are inconsistent in your statements.

> With these pieces however, they are minimally not

> copies and while some will argue are not genuinely

> ancient, they cannot be copies of something that

> didn't exist before it. Copy of a ming vase? Of

> course. Copy of a 28kg giant malachite

> zhulong/pig dragon? I say show me the original if

> a 'copy'.

and practically immediately after that you wrote:

> I understand what fantasy items are but in the case of the

> zhulong/pig dragon iconography of the Hongshan, there

> are many examples in existence in museums, although

> not necessarily of that media.

Sorry, but you don't understand what fake items are, in such case. What it is - an enlarged copy of known before zhulong dragon, made of wrong materials (of malachite in this case) and wrong sizes, as not classic case of a fake!? What is fake in your understanding?

My friends are involved in scientific expertize of painting. The single streak made by paint with wrong pigment in its composition is able to questioned the authenticity of whole picture. You have on hands 60-pound pieces of wrong stone and you still believe...

Unfortunately I see, that you are from a number of persons, who inclined to believe such items in stones as traces of prehistorical civilizations.

and don't find more sense for me to participate in the discussion.

Success in your endeavors!

10th Jul 2016 22:28 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Johm,

I think Pavel is getting frustrated because you are ignoring the key facts here - that this cannot be an ancient malachite carving because there was NO ancient malachite carving of material like this in China in the past because there was no source for the material at the time in China.

That, added to the fact that Malachite *quickly* degrades (years or decades not centuries) when exposed to groundwater, as anyone who has collected malachite in the field will tell you means that, and I will be clear with this.

It is impossible that these malachite carvings are ancient chinese carvings.

I understand this is not what you want to hear, but you did ask...

10th Jul 2016 22:45 UTCStephanie Martin

Hello John,

This has so far been a polite discussion and that is good. Please do not interpret Pavel's direct scientific method as smugness. As a scientist he is offering facts and expert opinion.

Yes it can happen that sometimes experts may be wrong, as they are human like all of us. But in the end they are experts because they are mostly right when discussing their field of experience.

While you want to believe that your carvings are authentic, the parameters suggest otherwise. You hold out false hope. The pitting proves nothing really, I have modern pieces that are pitted. How long was the rough exposed to oxidation before being carved? No one can know. But an original patina, had it existed might tell us something. If it has been polished off there is nothing to test.

The carvings would still be worth something as decorative pieces if not authentic. But to me they scream fake. My undergrad study was in ancient civilizations. While I am not an expert in antiquities, these just don't offer up any suggestion to be legit artifacts. If they are around 100 years old you might get away with calling them antique, but not ancient, and not artifacts of archeological value.

Enjoy your carvings.

Kind regards,

stephanie

11th Jul 2016 00:45 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

I want to make a couple of points here. I have been following this thread.

I come from a scientific background and worked in animal behavior for many years.

I also have worked with minerals for nearly 50 years.

In that time I have attempted to educate people who wish something to be what they think.

Two cases in point. I met a young couple collecting gold in a stream and I was teaching a nature class. They came to me during a break and showed me the gold they had just collected on top of the sand in the stream. No matter how much I tried to show them it was not gold, they didn't believe me. I finally shrugged my shoulders and gave up.

This happened with a story I wrote about finding a mine tunnel full of minerals under a house I used to own. I gave it to the person I sold the house to just for fun of something I wrote about that house.

Two years later a man stopped by my store and started telling me my story about the mineral find under the house. I smiled and told him it was my story to the letter. Again he wouldn't believe me. Same as with the gold, no matter how much I tried to convince him he choose to believe the story was real.

Some people one just has to step back and let them believe what they want.

Yes, this site has very knowledgeable people but some don't choose to believe them.

My only answer is that everyone is allowed their opinion as long as they don't try and push it down my throat.

Think it is time to end this thread it is only treading water.

Rolf

11th Jul 2016 02:58 UTCJohn Dougal

Sounds good to me Rolf. Correlating my actions to animal behavior is a clear indicator for me to move on. Kidding aside, I understand what you're saying and simply choose to take a different path than the accepted. Thanks all for your time.

11th Jul 2016 09:13 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

It is your right to believe whatever you wish to believe. All we are trying to do is give you the facts to help make an informed decision.

11th Jul 2016 23:40 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

Deletion of photos of discussed items looks unsightly and suspicious. (td)(td)(td)

12th Jul 2016 00:44 UTCDoug Daniels

"I didn't get the answers I wanted, so you can't see them anymore". Maybe?

12th Jul 2016 01:08 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

More likely, "I won't be able to sell these as ancient artifacts if people see them on this thread".

12th Jul 2016 05:44 UTCChristian Auer 🌟 Expert

I really miss the "like" button here sometime, Alfredo.

12th Jul 2016 12:45 UTCMatt Courville

As the saying goes - 'One man's junk is someone else's treasure'

:-D

12th Jul 2016 13:03 UTCWayne Corwin

Matt

They also say "Junk is JUNK" :)-D

12th Jul 2016 13:10 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

There is one happy ending for this tale.

Maybe he deleted the images, but if you search

ancient chinese malachite artifacts

on google, you come straight here.

12th Jul 2016 16:02 UTCReinhardt van Vuuren

I never got to see the photos he loaded, but I was very interested, I did a google image search under ancient chinese malachite artifacts mindat.org and these came up, can anyone confirm that these are the the pieces that were discussed?

12th Jul 2016 16:09 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Yes these are the ones.

12th Jul 2016 16:13 UTCReinhardt van Vuuren

oh ok, interesting thanks Rob and Mr Google.

12th Jul 2016 16:14 UTCAndrew Debnam 🌟

Hmmmmmmm....I am definitely not an expert on ancient civilizations but they look more central American in style to me.

12th Jul 2016 16:36 UTCMatt Courville

Sadly I expect that very soon they will be someone else's central American-style malachite carvings bought fresh from e-bay and shown as fringe-theory Chinese artifacts. Doug - did not get the answers that he 'expected' seems a bit more honest.

I expect denial from someone who was just told that their prized treasures were fake, and feel quite bad for anyone who gets ripped-off. This might actually be a good thread idea:

Fake minerals that I bought (or that my 'friend' bought). The best way to determine and weed out fakes has to be looking at many of them to see the all of the faults, and bring them to the public arena.

12th Jul 2016 16:46 UTCDoug Schonewald

Reinhardt,

Those are two of them for sure

12th Jul 2016 17:21 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

Here is thread from one our local site a about "antique "nephrite" sword from Georgia" - http://www.amurklad.org/index.php?/topic/3244-%d0%bc%d0%be%d0%b6%d0%b5%d1%82-%d0%bb%d0%b8-%d0%b4%d1%80%d0%b5%d0%b2%d0%bd%d0%b8%d0%b9-%d0%ba%d0%b8%d1%82%d0%b0%d0%b9%d1%81%d0%ba%d0%b8%d0%b9-%d0%bc%d0%b5%d1%87-%c2%ab%d0%bf%d0%b5%d1%80%d0%b5%d1%87%d0%b5%d1%80%d0%ba%d0%bd%d1%83%d1%82%d1%8c%c2%bb/#

Somebody in US spent time to made freshly purchased item from eBay old looking.

12th Jul 2016 19:54 UTCJohn Dougal

You all are quite amusing with your assumptions. I will never sell these pieces, sorry. Also, I deleted the photos because I felt I made a poor judgement sharing them 'publicly' on this forum. I honestly don't like sharing anything I personally own with a bunch of strangers for security, liability, etc. but felt a strong inclination to do so after reviewing some of the great content within this forum.

I was honestly just trying to get more details and adding to the information I already have. If they end up being fakes, moderns, fantasy objects or whatever nomenclature you care to disparage then I'm fine with it as long as I can conclude it for myself. Money is not an issue here nor is time, hence the reason I will never sell them. Good luck to you all with each of your future endeavors.

12th Jul 2016 20:07 UTCAndrew Debnam 🌟

you may find this of interest from a Christies Auction in 2009

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-chinese-malachite-carving-of-a-lotus-5208642-details.aspx

12th Jul 2016 20:38 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

It is quite simple to see, that grade/quality of malachite used for carving of this leaf is much more lower, than one of items discussed above. Malachite of such quality may to originate even from China territory itself.

But Christie's didn't states, that the item is ancient or even of Qing times. They say that the leaf is modern carved.

12th Jul 2016 20:57 UTCAndrew Debnam 🌟

My point exactly Pavel, that is why I shared the Christies Auction piece. However is also shows that nicely carved Malachite pieces have some value. The Royal Ontario Museum here in Canada sells small carved Malachite boxes from the Congo for 200 dollars. I hope at the end of the day John enjoys his pieces

12th Jul 2016 21:36 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

I never said, that John's carvings are worthless. On the contrary, in my opinion, the sample of malachite used for making sculpture of an eagle absolutely amazing and unique in its structure and symmetry of the pattern of the rings.

Sometimes we found within natural layered materials examples of pictures with astounding grade of detalization.

So the malachite eagle is unique and valuable specimen. But only not ancient.

12th Jul 2016 22:27 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

I quite agree, Pavel. The discussion here was never about value, only about their age. I assume such large, quality malachite carvings would be valuable, despite being modern.

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