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GeneralPrivate Property Concerns
13th Mar 2012 16:26 UTCMichael J. Bainbridge Expert
That in mind, I'm not trying to be the Mindat police, and I'm not suggesting that all identifiable property information be pulled from the site. Much of this information is, after all, freely publicly available anyway and there are appropriate disclaimers about the use of such information in place - everything is fully legal and above board, I'm sure. Ethically, however, what concerns me is that I have seen some very specific property descriptions and directions (even "if the gate is locked, go around" in one case), and detailed accounts of collecting being posted where I know for a fact the owner is not aware that this information is being posted online, and in some cases, is specifically opposed to it.
Giving the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure that everyone who has posted such an account knew that they were on private property and had permission from the landowner to collect - because we all know that it is our moral duty and legal responsibility to determine property status and obtain appropriate permissions first - right? But granting permission on an individual basis, and openly welcoming anyone who read it on the internet are two very different things. Most people aren't interested in managing a tourist attraction. I know we're all very excited to share news of our latest find (which I don't want to discourage) - and you might be well within your rights to do so - but if it would piss off the owner to find out that you posted such details on the internet, should you?
Again, I'm not calling for any radical change to the management of Mindat - I'm just asking all users, as responsible rockhounds, to think twice about how much identifying information we make public about our adventures on private property without asking the owner's permission first. At the very least, please indicate that the site you were on is private, and that you were there with permission, so that people like me who work very hard, both personally and professionally, to negotiate access to these places don't read your post and say, "well, there goes another one".
A few suggestions:
If you know you were trespassing, or didn't have permission to collect, it's probably not a good idea to admit that in a public forum.
If you don't know if the site you were on is public or private, you probably shouldn't have been there in the first place - so please, find out before admitting such a transgression and ruining the chances that anyone might be able to gain access legitimately in the future.
Established precident aside, don't use the property owner's name as the location name unless they're okay with it. I'm aware of instances where they've been tracked down in the phone book and are now receiving many unwelcome phone calls from complete strangers - not what they bargained for by letting you in (we rockhounds can be very persistent).
Even if the owner is okay with you posting about your experiences or their property, detailed directions (including GPS coordinates) that don't include "stop here and ask permission" - also probably not a good idea.
ABOVE ALL: Please respect people's right to, or at least their desire for privacy. When in doubt, er on the side of caution.
13th Mar 2012 21:34 UTCAndrew Johns
13th Mar 2012 22:05 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
What we will not do is to remove entire locality entries themselves, or any associated mineralogical or geological information (as some landowners have demanded in the past) - That is part of the scientific record and the information belongs to everyone, not the property owner.
13th Mar 2012 23:33 UTCSteve Cantiello
I can see the day where only the privileged and wealthy will be able to collect rocks and minerals,and that SUCKS!
I do understand the concern of private property.Michael you have a point there.
When I see another posted sign I see the need for OUR focus to be on mine owner ship or mineral rights through what ever means it would take to obtain that.
A bit off the subject but a point to consider.
14th Mar 2012 05:05 UTCMichael J. Bainbridge Expert
Michael
14th Mar 2012 05:20 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert
(You didn't want them anyway...)
14th Mar 2012 05:25 UTCMichael J. Bainbridge Expert
14th Mar 2012 10:35 UTCScott L. Ritchie Expert
Every locality page on mindat says: "You should never attempt to visit any sites listed in mindat.org without first ensuring that you have the permission of the land and/or mineral rights holders for access and that you are aware of all safety precautions necessary."
Some of our mining properties have been private land for a 100 years, and regardless of the many miles of posted dirt road and numerous locked gates, we still catch the occasional nitwit going up the mountain to get their (perceived) fair share of the booty.
Obviously each person's story is unique, and people must be treated according to their intentions, and the severity of the trespass. All a property owner can really do is reduce any on site hazards, and increase the signage and security to handle the inevitable stray humanoid - undoubtedly caught up in a moment of mineral induced fantasy.
Scott
14th Mar 2012 12:16 UTCKimberley Kipling
I wish to add to this subject. Every year I pay insurance and taxes the same as all home owners. However because
I too often find eager rockhounds spending a glorious afternoon un invited I must carry higher amounts of insurance
to protect unwanted strangers that invade my home. Too often I learn of this invasion once the articles are posted online
with pictures and directions on how to trespass to the site. The feelings this leaves me with is the same as if someone
has broken into my home. It leaves me with fear and distrust.
These rockhounds that do come on their own post a hodge podge of incorrect information and their own speculation. They
openly insult the area and its people because we havent made our homes freely accessable for their enjoyment. If so much time can be spent researching an area and its mines then there is no reason why the first most important piece of information ' Ownership" isnt done.
I am so proud to be part of this wonderful place and I do believe these areas should be available for everyone to enjoy and appreciate.
Ask for a tour and you will have an experience like no other. Ask and there is a greater possibility of entering the mines and viewing what has been hiden to all others.
I know it would be a miserable place if we had to see private property signage and fencing around every property in every village town and city.
We know if it isnt our own home or property then it belongs to someone else. I hope you find gems in every stone you turn.
Kim Kipling
14th Mar 2012 13:01 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert
The reality is many people use this web site as a go to guide for tracking down localities, disclaimer be damed. Why not? Many of the locality pages are chock full of descriptions, GPS data and the like. I can't tell you how many people I have encountered in my travels (and my travels have been extensive) who have advised that they tracked down a particular locality using Mindat. I prefer consulting historical reports- in my geographical area, they are in many cases superior to the data present here but when I joined Mindat, the lure of the vertible smorgesboard of info was really quite appealing.
To the extent Michael's general point is to encourage sensativity and common sense on the part of uploaders of locality info. here, here. To the extent that someone may take from his post the need to have uploaders state with specificity how they gained access to a particular site, well that idea would curl my hair more then it already is.
Michael, I note that you were quite diplomatic in describing the problem as you see it. But are your specific objections to perceived inappropriate content on locality pages, contributor articles or both? Regardless, nice post.
14th Mar 2012 17:32 UTCScott L. Ritchie Expert
I understand your feelings regarding the mindat disclaimer and gps coordinates for certain hidden sites, and you'd be surprised that there are still many localities that I still haven't uploaded here, due to my concerns as well. Alfredo makes a good point about the public domain of scientific data, but we all know certain data can be proprietary. I try to take everything into consideration before uploading to mindat, and maybe others can and should do more of the same, as Michael points out.
In our little area, the state and federal governments published reports that outright encouraged and guided the public to trespass on private lands and remove valuable minerals from the mine dumps, which quickly morphed into hundreds of individuals stealing an incredible amount of valuable minerals and other real property from the legal owners, even underground - to the degree that a cottage industry of 'thieves and liars' developed over the following 60 years, some of whom are currently esteemed managers on mindat, publishers of printed mineralogical magazines, and/or quite successful international mineral dealers (names withheld out of courtesy). ;-)
Scott
14th Mar 2012 18:48 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert
14th Mar 2012 19:25 UTCStephen Moreton Expert
-------------------------------------------------------
> He who dies with the most private property wins!
You can't take it with you!
14th Mar 2012 19:44 UTCColin Robinson
All this activity has resulted in a vast amount of information held in my head and on a card index system. NONE of it will ever appear on mindat for the simple reason that it is very likely to be abused. There are some very experienced field collectors in this part of the world who have never and will never contribute to an online database. The information we have was hard won and is likely to die with us. I suspect we could easily double the number of locations and recorded species but until we can be sure that no-one will mis-use it stays where it is.
If you really want to collect get off your backside and do the work. Oh, and have a chat with the property owner. You'd be surprised how many actually appreciate a little courtesy.
14th Mar 2012 19:46 UTCRob (The Rock Hunter) Shepard
14th Mar 2012 20:41 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert
However, if there is scientific merit to collecting coordinates, it probably would be a good idea to get it right. I'll go out on a limb and note that between 70 and 80 percent of the coordinates entered in the area that interests me are wrong, very wrong. and not by a couple of miles. How do I know? Well, I know a lot of people who DO know how to use a Garmin and have attempted to track down hundreds of the localities and found that they were way of the mark. In fact, I was recently contacted by someone at a military installation who inquired if I had any idea who came up with the coordinates for a particular locality and how he/she got it so very wrong. Mind you he wasn't eager for me to set the record straight. Sometimes, localities are many many miles or whole counties removed from where it actually lies. To me, someone sitting at a computer terminal 2000 miles from the locality entering data isn't accomplishing a whole lot, despite what the USGS might say in their data base. Likewise, someone with no personal knowledge of the locality taking guesses on a Topographic map isn't excactly adding scientific value to Mindat. And plugging in coordinates that result in a locality appearing forty miles off course, should not be considered accurate, contrary to what one of those esteemed managers told me some time ago.
But I digress from the original point being made. I think. Anyway, I stated my feelings on the issues Michael raised above.
14th Mar 2012 21:06 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert
Which, really hindered my plans of staking some claims so I could keep some spots open to rockhounds for as long as I could pay for the claims.
Stuff was just CONFUSING.
I'm always picking the best side of the problem to fall into. I ask permission for access before I hop onto private property, I make it a habit of not entering old mines unless I am with the owner/operator or it is a well known classic locality with no active mining interest. IE, none of the pegmatites to the south are on my list of places to visit. Meh. Of course, you can see my words in action in the first issue of The-Vug.com Quarterly I talk about how I went on a WILD collecting trip all because I inquired with someone about land status and the owner. That awesome adventure would have never happened if I didn't inquire. Are you telling me that I should have not inquired because the land owner might be sick and tired of people talking to them?
Private property is certainly a right. Using your property to do nothing but cause a hindrance to access of a classic location is loathsome, as in the Grand Reef mine in AZ, the Nuevo Pegmatite in Southern California and so on, ad nausium. So, sometimes that whole "Go AROUND the gate" isn't a real problem to me.
And like Colin said, good lord. I've done the work. I've done the research. Why am I just going to give it on up to anyone? I've already told the world about TONS of great places to collect rocks, let me keep some of them, and the CORRECT GPS directions, to myself!
14th Mar 2012 21:08 UTCPete Stoeckel
14th Mar 2012 22:37 UTCHolger Klapproth
19th Mar 2012 04:16 UTCMatt Ciranni
The big problem for rock hounds here is, numerous sites are being/have been closed due to other reasons, not the least of which is many well-known sites have been so picked over and over-harvested that the supply of collectable material is long since exhausted.
But there are two major problems in Idaho facing rock hounds. The first is sites being closed by beaurocrats, for example the Sawtooth Mountains. This area once had the best crystals and mineral hunting you could imagine. But when it was declared a wilderness area, rock hounding in the Sawtooths instantly became illegal. Now I am all for wilderness areas and protecting our wild spaces, but the downside of wilderness designation is sometimes it is TOO restrictive- as in the case for rock hunting. The second big problem is, often as soon as someone discovers a site with interesting, collectable minerals around here, someone else comes along and puts a claim on it, and the site instanly becomes off limits to rock hounding. This has recently happened to the famous "Beacon Hill Thunder Egg" spot, for example. Sure the site may still technically be public land, but as soon as you pick up even one tiny "Leave'er'ite" pebble, you are guilty of a crime. Thus, back to the original point: there is strong incentive for people around here, when they discover a new unlisted spot with interesting minerals, to keep it a secret, lest someone else come along and put a claim on it, and end any chance of casual rockhounds to find specimens for themselves. I suspect a lot of areas in this state have remained "secret" and unlisted for that reason.
19th Mar 2012 12:25 UTCChristian Auer 🌟 Expert
You are allowed to trespass EVERYWHERE except its strictly forbidden (f.e. a timely limited forest cut). That`s a right we fought and won somewhere in the 70ies last century. Paradise on earth!
Collecting minerals is similiar to collecting mushrooms etc.
Everywhere allowed in acceptable behaviour (picking up stones etc.) except its forbidden by a sign/shield like in National Parks of the Alps.
Besides that it should be a normal behaviour to ask kindly when you see someone and I can`t remember one single incidence within 40 years where I got a "No". More often I got an invitation for comming in for lunch after work, especially in Carinthia!
19th Mar 2012 13:06 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
19th Mar 2012 17:00 UTCRaymond Lasmanis
24th Mar 2012 15:57 UTCJames Christopher
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